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Post by chang on Nov 7, 2006 0:16:26 GMT -4
Tom Brady won the championship with a WR playing DB, LBs that were past their prime, the current #3 RB on the depth chart of the Patriots and decent WRs (noone in the league of Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Stokley that Peyton have and Mark Clayton and the bunch that Marino had).
Who did Montana have? He won 4 Super Bowls. He never had the Terrell Davis that Elway had either. Not only that, at Notre Dame, Montana won the big games.
Marino is one of the best quarterbacks stats wise but great QBs win Super Bowls with what they have, not what they could have had. Just ask Tom Brady. Peyton Manning will go down as the new millenium and improved Marino that never won the big game.
Marino is still my 3rd greatest quarterback ever. Behind Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas and slightly ahead of John Elway
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Post by Boyd on Nov 7, 2006 0:43:36 GMT -4
Yeah, but the Quartbacks have nothing to do with the defense and special teams.
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Post by nbthriller80 on Nov 7, 2006 1:44:46 GMT -4
Marino may have never had a WR on the same level as Marvin Harrison, nor a RB on the level of Edgerrin James, but it's not like he played without talent. Mark Duper and Mark Clayton, anyone? Not to mention he played with far, far, far better defenses than Mannings ever had, and as good a coach as Dungy's been, he's no Don Shula. What does Manning have this year? Granted, Harrison and Wayne are nice, but Peyton makes them look better than they make him look. Brandon Stokely has a whopping 47 receptions over the past 2 years, including a massive 2 this year due to barely playing. And it's no coincidence by far his best season came his 1st year in Indy, a QB with Peyton's skills can make anyone look great. His running game, he's got a career backup who's playing like shit, and while Addai has looked nice, he's still just a rookie. His defense? Please. The #31/32 ranked rush defense, and a bunch of injured guys; Simon, Reagor, Doss, Sanders. yet, based almost entirely on MVPeyton's play, he's led his team to an 8-0 record including back-to-back wins, on the road, vs the #2 and #3 teams in the league imo. If the Colts go down in the playoffs, it'll be because of the defense, not Peyton Manning. And as long as the O:Line protects Peyton, I don't think the defense will even matter, because NOONE has a chance in hell of stopping our offense. As for Tom, Brady, he's great, but he's not a freak of nature, once-a-generation QB like Peyton Manning is. Even his playoff wins haven't been anything really special, just your average good games. Nothing to wet yourself over a la Steve Young. Of course, when you play with a great defense, the most clutch kicker of all-time, and perhaps the greatest coach ever, you don't have to be special to win, just adequate. I can't help but wonder how Tom Brady would do with a defense as poor as Mannings. Oh that's right, he'd miss the playoffs like he did in 2003. And Joe Montana? Pufuckinglease. The guy played with the greatest football player of all-time, a Hall of Fame coach, and Hall of Fame worthy defenses. People go on about his 4 Super Bowls, I'm more puzzled by all the seasons he didn't win a Super Bowl judging by the absurd talent those 49 teams had.
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Post by rjstew94 on Nov 7, 2006 3:20:55 GMT -4
I think P. Manning will be the best of all-time. Currently I think you have too give it to Montana. I always rooted against the guy but he always came up with the big play. Marino was amazing when he first came into the league it's too bad he never got a championship. Football is very much a team game you take Manning away from the Colts and there a .500 team at best.
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Post by nbthriller80 on Nov 7, 2006 18:36:16 GMT -4
I think skills-wise, stats wise, and individual accomplishments wise, Peyton Manning will be heads and shoulders above every QB who's ever played, including Dan Marino. But if he never wins a Super Bowl, I doubt he's regarded as the greatest ever. I can't say agree with that logic since football teams do consist of 53 players, but thats just the way it is.
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Post by chang on Nov 7, 2006 20:06:22 GMT -4
Tom Brady is definately a freak-of-nature QB. He won 3 Super Bowls. What can Peyton Manning say? He's going to break all passing records but he can't win in the playoffs.
Bill Belicheck... the greatest coach you're talking about was 36-44 with the Browns who had Bernie Kosar at the time.
The Patriots have had WRs, rookies, players past their prime, and 2nd string players START for their defense and succeed. You don't see them bitching about not having the greatest defensive players. They didn't have 2 huge pass rushing threat the Colts have with Freeney or Mathis. They do have Seymour but the Colts have had Simon or McFarland. The Colts have had top 15 defenses in 03 and 05 based on yards given up per game.
Sure, Tom Brady had Adam Vinetieri but the Colts also had the most accurate kicker in NFL history. Either way, kickers only play 5-6 times in a game, including kickoffs. What about the 70 other plays? Vinatieri had no role in the other parts of the game.
Tom Brady doesn't have Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, and Brandon Stokley. He had Deion Branch, Troy Brown, Daniel Graham and David Givens. Tom Brady had to work with Kevin Faulk before he got an aging Corey Dillon. The Colts have had Edgerrin James. Both teams have good lines. The Colts easily had more talent on offense.
Peyton Manning has not had any less talent than Tom Brady. There are few major excuses for him not being able to at least make the Super Bowl.
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mancowmilitia
6th Man
SLOB - Cubs
2005 / 2009 SLOB Champions
Posts: 966
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Post by mancowmilitia on Nov 7, 2006 20:41:39 GMT -4
Peyton Manning has not had any less talent than Tom Brady. There are few major excuses for him not being able to at least make the Super Bowl. Well put...
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Post by nbthriller80 on Nov 7, 2006 21:12:58 GMT -4
Tom Brady is definately a freak-of-nature QB. He won 3 Super Bowls. What can Peyton Manning say? He's going to break all passing records but he can't win in the playoffs. Bill Belicheck... the greatest coach you're talking about was 36-44 with the Browns who had Bernie Kosar at the time. The Patriots have had WRs, rookies, players past their prime, and 2nd string players START for their defense and succeed. You don't see them bitching about not having the greatest defensive players. They didn't have 2 huge pass rushing threat the Colts have with Freeney or Mathis. They do have Seymour but the Colts have had Simon or McFarland. The Colts have had top 15 defenses in 03 and 05 based on yards given up per game. Sure, Tom Brady had Adam Vinetieri but the Colts also had the most accurate kicker in NFL history. Either way, kickers only play 5-6 times in a game, including kickoffs. What about the 70 other plays? Vinatieri had no role in the other parts of the game. Tom Brady doesn't have Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, and Brandon Stokley. He had Deion Branch, Troy Brown, Daniel Graham and David Givens. Tom Brady had to work with Kevin Faulk before he got an aging Corey Dillon. The Colts have had Edgerrin James. Both teams have good lines. The Colts easily had more talent on offense. Peyton Manning has not had any less talent than Tom Brady. There are few major excuses for him not being able to at least make the Super Bowl. Defenses win in the playoffs. Period. You can bring up all the numbers you want, but anyone who says the Colts have had anywhere near the defense the Patriots have had dont know what theyre talking about and arent even worth arguing with. And Tom Brady didn't win 3 Super Bowls, the Patriots won 3 Super Bowls. Last time I checked, football teams consisted of 53 players. Bradys a QB with a very good arm, very good accuracy, and very good smarts. Peytons a QB with a great arm, probably the best ever accuracy, and probably the best ever smarts. Mannings a once-a-generation QB. Brady's a very good QB made to look better than he actually is because his coaching staff and defense have helped him lead his team to 3 Super Bowls.
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Post by nbthriller80 on Nov 7, 2006 21:28:47 GMT -4
Tom Brady is definately a freak-of-nature QB. He won 3 Super Bowls. What can Peyton Manning say? He's going to break all passing records but he can't win in the playoffs. Team success (Super Bowl wins) measure team greatness. Individual success (MVPs, Records etc.) measure individual greatness. How hard is that to understand really? I could understand if Tom Brady just tore through the playoffs every year and was the sole reason the Patriots won, but neither is the case. He's had several good, but nothing special games. Games that were good enough to win in the playoffs only because his defense allowed them to be.
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Post by chang on Nov 7, 2006 21:46:15 GMT -4
Greatness is defined by winning games, especially the playoffs and the Super Bowl, not by losing.
Sure, defense wins championships but not all of them. Didn't the Patriots play the Panthers in the second highest yardage game in Super Bowl history? Where was the defense then? Didn't Tom Brady have one of the best Super Bowl performances ever passing wise? He had 354 yards, the fifth best in the Super Bowl and a record 32 completions.
No matter what, Tom Brady led his team to a 10-1 performance in the playoffs in his career. Pair that with 7-0 in overtime and 21 4th quarter drives to win (on pace to double Montana's streak). And guess what, Tom Brady led the league in passing yards last season.
I don't know what odd world you live in but winning big games matters more than stats.
And sure, argue all you want how a team wins games. 22 players as a whole. But you don't need 22 Pro Bowl players to win. The Colts had 8 last season if I'm not mistaken. 8/22 is more than any other team last season. It's not like the Colts have peewee football players surrounding him. The Colts simply play Arena Football. Outscore the opponent.
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Post by FUCK GATOR MONTH!! O H!! on Nov 7, 2006 22:08:31 GMT -4
Payton Manning's defensive strategy...keep his offense on the field!!
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Post by Jogo on Nov 7, 2006 22:11:36 GMT -4
McNabb is the most underated QB in the league!
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Post by FUCK GATOR MONTH!! O H!! on Nov 7, 2006 22:20:27 GMT -4
no way, Jeff George is
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Post by nbthriller80 on Nov 8, 2006 3:10:12 GMT -4
Greatness is defined by winning games, especially the playoffs and the Super Bowl, not by losing. And thats where the flaw lies. Defining individual greatness by team success is plain stupid. Tiger Woods is 1-4 in the Ryder Cup. Using your incredibly ignorant logic, that would disqualify him for the title of worlds greatest golfer. Sure, defense wins championships but not all of them. Didn't the Patriots play the Panthers in the second highest yardage game in Super Bowl history? Where was the defense then? Didn't Tom Brady have one of the best Super Bowl performances ever passing wise? He had 354 yards, the fifth best in the Super Bowl and a record 32 completions. Hey, cool, he had the game of his career. That's an average game for Peyton Manning. And yes 90% of the time defense wins championships. What you blatantly fail to mention is, without their great defense, New England wouldn't have been in the Super Bowl in the first place. No matter what, Tom Brady led his team to a 10-1 performance in the playoffs in his career. Pair that with 7-0 in overtime and 21 4th quarter drives to win (on pace to double Montana's streak). And guess what, Tom Brady led the league in passing yards last season. Great season by Brady. No one said he wasn't a great QB, I just said he's not a freak of nature QB like MVPeyton. And by the way, Manning would've once again led the league in those cateogires had he played a full 16 games. I don't know what odd world you live in but winning big games matters more than stats. In individual sports, sure. In team sports? Not a chance in hell. And sure, argue all you want how a team wins games. 22 players as a whole. But you don't need 22 Pro Bowl players to win. The Colts had 8 last season if I'm not mistaken. 8/22 is more than any other team last season. It's not like the Colts have peewee football players surrounding him. The Colts simply play Arena Football. Outscore the opponent. The Colts got 8 Pro Bowlers based primarily on their record. Half of those guys didn't deserve to go, they were only voted in out of respect for the team that started out 13-0.
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Post by John on Nov 8, 2006 10:03:34 GMT -4
I don't know what odd world you live in but winning big games matters more than stats. i couldn't agree more, chang. i agree with pretty much all or most of your points, but this one the most.
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