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Post by Beast Mode (lilsims) on May 12, 2008 17:46:19 GMT -4
So I had a huge debate about this with some CO-Workers and I wanted to know what you guys thought about this.
Both guys are accused of cheating, one guy has been proven of cheating, while the other say's he did it unknowingly.
So the question is:
Whats the difference between Barry Bonds and Bill Belichick, and why is everything Barry Bonds did discredited, but Belichick is still considered a brilliant coach?
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David
Bench Warmer
Posts: 258
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Post by David on May 12, 2008 18:03:18 GMT -4
+1 rep for the Curry sig.
I think with most people, race plays a bigger role in these types of things than we'd like to think it does. I'm not trying to start a heated argument or "play the race card," but it's true. It's subconscious, it's intuitive, and it's human nature (triple redundancy, anyone?). But even without that factor, people can find a million reasons to hate Barry, and usually do. The same can be said about Belichick, but people choose not to hate him for some reason.
I personally no longer consider Belichick a brilliant coach. I consider him a coach. Barry Bonds, on the other hand, just bores me. I can't wait until A-Rod, or someone else, breaks his record.
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Post by J-Sav on May 12, 2008 19:02:35 GMT -4
David, you hit right on the mark. I believe most people don't go out to hate on folks because of their race, but unconsiously they do. When a white guy who is an arrogant, and given a free pass, and considered tough (example: Clemens, Belliceck, etc), but when a black person is arrogant, he is considered an asshole (TO, Bonds, Ali, ect). It is people supconscious perception of people, that's all, and is something we all have. I'm on the other side of you Dave, that I still think Bonds and Bellicheck are still the greatest at what they do. But at least you are consistent.
Great topic Sims, and you make a good point. They both are precieved cheaters, and one have been proven, and has admitted that he has done it, but the other hasn't been proven without a resonable doubt (even though I do think he has). But I still do consider them both still great at what they do. So the point is there is no difference IMO. And someone who does think it is needs to check themselves, and ask why? But Bellicheck has been given a free pass, unlike Bonds, when what he did I consider worst. He video taped other people signals. But I believe that football is based more on will than that BS.
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Post by Seattle Slough on May 12, 2008 19:12:13 GMT -4
LOL, sorry to bust your guy's bubble, but I doubt any of this has to do with race. That really is some bullshit. Are you telling me Bellicheck isn't taking any heat? They are booed so bad even in the sports bars I go to. Has bonds had to give up anything by cheating? NO! Belichick was fined a half a million dollars, which is chump change, but also fined a 1st round pick. In the NFL those are prescious picks.
Are they going to take away bonds records, probably not. Im sure if this shit was a race situation, then OJ would have never been found innocent. Pretty sure Bellichick has been punished more then Bonds on cheating. Of course until bonds shares a cell mate with Vick,lol. Its funny to me that there always seems to be someone throwing out the race card. Any situation it will happen, but if you think about it, there will always be racism because people can't forget, and always bring it to the race card.
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Post by Beast Mode (lilsims) on May 12, 2008 19:23:30 GMT -4
I agree with One Time for one point, that I don't think it's a race thing. However Barry Bonds has been banished from Baseball, and the league has done all it can to make his records mean nothing. Everything from the commish saying he wasn't going to show up for the game he broke the record, to having to sit infront of congress. My point that I made to my co-workers is that I would like to see Bill go on trial, as did so moany baseball players. I only used Barry as an example, because he seems to of been hit the hardest. (Clemens isn't a good example, because he is being judged for more then just baseball things)
I think the two have been treated differently as people. The Pats got the worste punishment, but as for individual people, I don't think it's close who is getting it worste. It's not even close IMO. Barry Bonds gets it a million times worse then Bill, and I don't fully understand why that is. Both are cheaters IMO, and both are just as bad to there sports if all allegations are true.
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Post by Seattle Slough on May 12, 2008 19:43:22 GMT -4
They should have been dealt with differently. The main reason why Bonds is ousted and having to deal with the government, cause he took a substance that is illegal. In the Justice system filming signs isn't exactly something you can be convicted of. Yes its wrong and fucked up, but he was also punished for it.
Another thing, they didn't lie to court and say they never did it. Bonds, Clemens lied there asses off. That I think is the main part that separates them from Bellichick.
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Post by J-Sav on May 12, 2008 19:55:49 GMT -4
I think what David and I are trying to get is that it's perceptions that we all have about other people of different races, which we all have. To say it not at all about race is naive, but for the most part it is about assholes. Unfortuantely, not alot of people think like we do, and can't get past their prejudices.
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Post by Seattle Slough on May 12, 2008 20:13:43 GMT -4
I would have to say your making an assumption that all people have preconcieved prejudice or racism without knowing it, and acting upon it or else there would be no arguement. I strongly disagree with that, because not all people judge by their preconcieved notion philosphy babble bullshit. Clemon is guilty, do I pitty him, hell no. Bellichick is guilty and I boo them and crack jokes about how retarded that was all the time. He was also penalized for it. Bonds is guilty, but I actually wouldn't mind him on the Mariners right now to get the bats going. But he is guilty as hell and should lie, come on, who says I didn't know I was taking them. People just don't notice they get 30 pounds bigger and start bombing the ball out of the park more.
Bellichick is at the least the most manilest of these guys to cough up for what they did wrong and admit to it instead of lying. I would rather a guy say he was wrong, instead of lie.
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Post by Beast Mode (lilsims) on May 12, 2008 20:16:18 GMT -4
I would have to say your making an assumption that all people have preconcieved prejudice or racism without knowing it, and acting upon it or else there would be no arguement. I strongly disagree with that, because not all people judge by their preconcieved notion philosphy babble bullshit. Clemon is guilty, do I pitty him, hell no. Bellichick is guilty and I boo them and crack jokes about how retarded that was all the time. He was also penalized for it. Bonds is guilty, but I actually wouldn't mind him on the Mariners right now to get the bats going. But he is guilty as hell and should lie, come on, who says I didn't know I was taking them. People just don't notice they get 30 pounds bigger and start bombing the ball out of the park more. Bellichick is at the least the most manilest of these guys to cough up for what they did wrong and admit to it instead of lying. I would rather a guy say he was wrong, instead of lie. Bellichick only admitted to the game he was caught for. They had the tape, so he had to admit it, but he didn't admit to any other games until they got the new tapes.
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Post by Seattle Slough on May 12, 2008 20:30:30 GMT -4
Other guys are being caught using steroids and their still lying,lol.
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Post by Kobe Dominates! on May 12, 2008 20:41:58 GMT -4
Not much. They are both cheaters. Clemens is just as despised as Bonds ever was/ Belichick doesn't get heat from the feds though because he was never dumb and arrogant enough to lie under oath. That's a completely different issue.
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Post by J-Sav on May 12, 2008 21:01:34 GMT -4
Trust me OT when I say that's what I'm not all about. I like to think that no one does think like that. But unfortuanetly, not everyone thinks like you and me. I want to agree with everything that you say, and your absolutley entitled to that opinion you have on those two, and you are consistent in your opinion on them. But Bellicheck is getting alot less heat than Bonds. Even when you think about Clemens, when speculation was around the he did roids, more people believed that he worked hard. With Bonds, it was the perception that he was juicing from day one. You have to ask the question why was it that perception? I was naive, and believe that those two both worked hard. But as evidence has come out, it hard to believe that they were clean. But the point is that Bonds was hated, and Clemens was beloved, even when they had the same attitudes.
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Post by Jogo on May 12, 2008 21:13:26 GMT -4
But wasn't Bonds already way more hated before all the evidence came out? All the roids thing was just one more reason to hate on him. Nothing changed. Fact is Bonds is still probably the best hitter to ever play, Clemens is still a top pitcher from all time and Belichick a top coach but there will always be people that hate on them and usually the main reason is not because they did some cheating. I'm not naive to think that to the world all races are treated the same but the race card is probably played too often and this is one case where it doesn't apply IMO. Especially because race prejudice isn't just a one way road.
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Post by sativa417 on May 12, 2008 21:21:38 GMT -4
it was the perception because bonds went from small to huge. Clemens got bigger, but not as drastic as bonds. Also, as Jogo mentioned, Bonds has never really been liked.
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Post by Seattle Slough on May 12, 2008 21:24:35 GMT -4
Another reason, if you haven't noticed. Being a huge baseball fan I understand that the most sacred record and play in baseball to the average fan is the Home Run. To a true baseball fan, they will admit clemens and bonds are both wrong. But there are a lot more average fans, so the Home run is the most sacred feat in baseball, therefore there is more criticism for breaking the HR record, then to win 350 games and 7 cy youngs. Jogo has a point as well, that bonds made the image he was before the roids. He wasn't liked in the first place cause he was an arrogant prick. So, that is why he is getting more heat then clemens. Has nothing to do with race.
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