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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2009 8:03:33 GMT -4
ya, just thought id share what I wrote, and I will talk about Jesus anywhere I go, because if you don't personally know Jesus Christ, then your gonna go to hell. I really don't want anyone to have to experience that. I really don't care what people say about it, but I will continue to talk, nothing will make me stop. There are several other religions around the world that say the same thing (if you don't believe, something bad will happen to you). What makes you so certain that you, your parents, and this country got it right - and the billions of people around the world who aren't Christians got it wrong? And please don't quote the bible to answer the question, as all those other religions have holy text that can be quoted to make them seem right too.
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Post by J-Sav on Apr 14, 2009 11:17:06 GMT -4
ya, just thought id share what I wrote, and I will talk about Jesus anywhere I go, because if you don't personally know Jesus Christ, then your gonna go to hell. I really don't want anyone to have to experience that. I really don't care what people say about it, but I will continue to talk, nothing will make me stop. There are several other religions around the world that say the same thing (if you don't believe, something bad will happen to you). What makes you so certain that you, your parents, and this country got it right - and the billions of people around the world who aren't Christians got it wrong? And please don't quote the bible to answer the question, as all those other religions have holy text that can be quoted to make them seem right too. Excellent statement stork.
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Post by Jogo on Apr 14, 2009 11:24:38 GMT -4
It's pretty worthless. It's like explain a Lakers die hard fan that the Lakers might not be the best team in the world every year. Guys like Rog believe in whatever they are told or want to believe. No reason for it just because they do. And I've learned over the years that if you tell them by rational thinking that there is the possibility that there's something other way to look at things you are just an infidel thrown at his path to raise the bad seed of the doubt. Hell has to exist to keep us straight just like the boggey man exists to keep the children straight.
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Post by cupcrazy01 on Apr 14, 2009 11:25:39 GMT -4
My responses, with your comments in italics.
Fine. Christanity tellls you to suspend you God-given reason.
No, it does not. It tells you to repent of your sins and believe in the LORD your God, Whose revelation is given in the Holy Scriptures. Your first mistake is assuming that what you see as "reason" or, perhaps, "logic" is defined by physical things--what you can see and what you have experienced.
To believe a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your lord and master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
Copying a "definition" you got from the Urban Dictionary or from some guy on YouTube doesn't get us anywhere. Christ talks over and over again about how He is and will be hated by the world, and this is just proof of that. (John 15:18)
It seems rather obvious to me that if God had intended to give His “word” to man He would have made it clear and unambiguous
The central message of Scripture is clear and simple enough for a child to understand: all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) and therefore need a Savior to make atonement for their sins in order to be reconciled to God (Romans 5:10).
and would have made it equally available to all mankind
Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Mankind knows in their hearts there is a God, whether they acknowledge Him or not. It is not a prerequisite for anyone to own a Bible for this.
rather than to a select few with reliance on them to disperse it to the remaining majority,
God is omnipotent and sovereign, and in no way reliant on mankind for anything. Everything is done according to His purpose and for His glory. Was God reliant on man to convert Saul of Tarsus?
Christianity today is ridiculed for the many and various perversions of the gospel and heresies put forth and spread by false teachers (think televangelists). Bottom line is, if their teachings cannot be backed by Scripture, they are not trustworthy. Someone who sees an old clip of a televangelist begging for money should not lump all of Christianity in to that caricature and dismiss it out of hand...that is foolishness.
Man is by nature depraved and therefore will always love the things of this world: Romans 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
especially when the myriad of groups dispersing it cannot agree on what it says.
Of course there are dozens of denominations, but by and large most of those are formed by disagreements on secondary issues not pertaining to the gospel. The gospel saves, not the people who are distributing the Bibles around the world.
It seems to me that this idea of evangelism or ‘spreading the word’ is in contradiction of the belief itself. It implies that the salvation of the lost is the responsibility of the saved to ‘let them know’.
Scripture clearly teaches election, that is that God chooses His own people. He has used different ways of saving His people, from the days of His revelation to Abraham and Moses to use of the prophets and finally in the revelation of His Son (Hebrews 1). If God has chosen someone to be saved, that person will be saved, there is no reliance on people to do anything for God. If God is not sovereign, then He is not God.
It seems to remove the responsibility of knowing God’s will from God and places it upon His chosen. It suggests that many people are lost because the ‘saved’ can’t or don’t for whatever reasons make all the rounds.
Read above about God's election of His people.
This does not preclude free will or the responsibility to spread of the gospel by His people, as that is clearly commanded by Christ:
Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "(R)All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Where is love or fairness in this proposition?
Love is that God saves anyone at all. No one deserves it, and that is due to their depravity and sin. We debated depravity last year in another thread and I'm sure you remember that discussion. It's clearly taught in the Scripture and we can go back into that if you want.
Your definition of what is "fair" is just that, your definition. A man-centered definition, thinking of earthly things, not heavenly things.
__________________________
Ok...For instance, how could the God of Justice in the OT order the slaughtering of non-believers that perhaps never heard the Word and in the NT, He turned the other cheek? The God of the OT seemed to be the God of Wrath compared to the NT which he was the God of love.
This is such a common perception, one I myself held to until just a few years ago, before I had found in Scripture that this is just not true.
And yes, the immutability of God is proclaimed in both the Old and New Testament:
OT 1 Samuel 15:29 "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."
Psalm 102:25-30 Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. "Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. "But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end. "The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You."
NT Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
James 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
God is still a God of wrath (see Revelation) and has always been a God of love (see the covenants with Adam and Eve after the fall, and the covenants with Noah, Abraham, Moses and Israel, and David.
So why would the Lord harden Pharoh heart in the first place?
For His own glory, which I wrote about in my original response. But the responsibility was always Pharoah's, but as the book of Romans testifies to, he had made up his mind to sin...God forced nothing upon him.
Most Christians believe that God is omniscient which would imply that God knows in advance those headed for hell. If God knew at the outset of creation that the majority of the sentient humans with all their emotions, feelings and ability to suffer pain and discomfort were going to suffer horribly forever He certainly does not meet my concept of love.
Again, your concept. God doesn't have to create anybody. He does, and for the sole expressed purpose of His glory. If that creation remains in rebellion against him, then they are condemned to the eternal punishment of hell. But, back to Romans 1, they all know in their hearts their is a God and their God-given conscience testifies to His law, so that those who will repent can find a Savior in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.
The belief would have us accept that God creates a human and places him on earth under the influence of an agent more powerful and cunning then the human and lets the Devil have his way with him.
By no means does God "let the devil has his way with (them)." The devil has his punishment coming (again, see Revelation). While the devil is powerful, and more powerful than humans, this is why we are to be dependent on God for His mercy and His grace and to seek His help to save us from this evil age, and the "prince of the power of the air," Satan. We are not able to save ourselves, and Satan's influence on this world is another of God's purposes for leading His people to come to Him and drink the water of eternal life offered by Jesus Christ.
Even if God did not know in advance that most of mankind would fail to meet His requirement He can see every day how Satan is absolutely beating the pants off Him in winning the millions of souls that God is creating each hour.
Again, see the book of Revelation. Satan is beating the pants off of no one. Go back a page in this thread and read about what will become of him. There is no battle here, victory over Satan and death was won at the cross and confirmed by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
By the way of simple reasoning, that the Bible or Christianity is not at all what God is about and neither can possibly be true. God really is love and is much greater and more glorious than those sources portray. My point is that I believe that although everyone is very sincere they are not thinking deeper than the surface of their indoctrinated views. Some might ask, “well then, what’s your idea as to how to know the truth?” To me the answer is obvious, we learn truth about God the same way we learn anything else, by intense observation, study and objective thinking, along with using our God given reasoning, deduction and logic. The way we should not make such determination is by simply following our childhood teachings or the crowd without the application of much deeper contemplation, questioning and reasoning. Unfortunately, almost everyone on the planet does precisely the latter. Either their upbringing or some other event or experiences trigger some initial attention and they let that superficial conviction gain momentum and have complete dominance of their thinking from then on. As a consequence we have a multiplicity of beliefs and religions each convinced that they are God’s chosen and are responsible for defending God’s position with a resulting world of conflict and confusion.
Again, you are leaning on your own understanding.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
God is good. Those who truly seek Him shall find Him. Truth is not relative to what an individual creature wants it to be.
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Post by Kobe Dominates! on Apr 14, 2009 11:35:10 GMT -4
It's pretty worthless. It's like explain a Lakers die hard fan that the Lakers might not be the best team in the world every year. Guys like Rog believe in whatever they are told or want to believe. No reason for it just because they do. And I've learned over the years that if you tell them by rational thinking that there is the possibility that there's something other way to look at things you are just an infidel thrown at his path to raise the bad seed of the doubt. Hell has to exist to keep us straight just like the boggey man exists to keep the children straight. Everyone forms beliefs based on what they or told or read. I think your arrogance to suggest that you are somehow immune to this phenomena is hilarious.
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Post by J-Sav on Apr 14, 2009 12:58:22 GMT -4
Again, I stress the point cup. Can you give me examples that don't include a book that was voted on by man, and manipulated by man throughout the centuries? Yes, I did copy that sentence, but it sums it up for me. I couldn't have said it any better.
Cup, I believe Our God is great, and my my heart and reason tells me that there is a God. But maybe I just believe that our God is much much more than the one depicted in the Bible, and what you Christians tell us. I respect you guy's faith. I still have to go to church from time to time and sit a listen to my mother preach to me and I have to just sit there and take it out of respect of her. But to create being that the Lord knows is going to go to hell makes no sense to me. Have you ever asked why He would do that? Of course, because you're supposed have faith, and don't question it.
I could be wrong, and I acknowledge that. Have you ever thought that you could be wrong too? None of us know the truths really. I just know that when I see a sunset, experience the love of family or a significant other, or see the good in people, look at the SF bay on a beautiful day, that believe wholeheartedly that there is a God. You can't tell me that everything just happened. There is intelligent design. I experience something everyday that tell me that there something spiritual about being here on Earth. I don't need a special sign, or have believe in stories, etc to see that God is great, because I see His greatness everyday.
I wouldn't even care what you believe, because Deist promotes peace and don't judge people. But what I have a problem with is the conflict that religion has caused througout the world over time. This is a fact of history. Unlike some of your evidence, I can go to accurate books to prove my point. Most wars have been faught in the name of God. And with the new technology and weaponary, there is a real problem right now that I feel needs to be addressed. Because it's people of faiths that make this world scary, and is why alot of the world is divided. I know I can't change your mind, but it's just logical thinking to see that this why most of our world is divided.
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Post by Seattle Slough on Apr 14, 2009 13:27:21 GMT -4
Isn't christianity not even the oldest religion? Isn't scriptures from China or something much older than the religion that is Christianity? My main question goes along with stork's on how anybody really knows who is right and who is wrong? Rog and Cup, you guys can quote from the bible all day long, but like Sav says, those were written by man, not god, not jesus. So, how do you personally know that those are even right? If anything I think it should be your given right to question everything that is placed before you instead of taking everything whole heartedly as the absolute truth. Watch the Movie Religulous by Bill Maher. Or watch George Carlin: www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
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Post by Bish on Apr 14, 2009 13:31:11 GMT -4
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Post by Seattle Slough on Apr 14, 2009 13:43:33 GMT -4
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Post by Jogo on Apr 14, 2009 13:43:43 GMT -4
It's pretty worthless. It's like explain a Lakers die hard fan that the Lakers might not be the best team in the world every year. Guys like Rog believe in whatever they are told or want to believe. No reason for it just because they do. And I've learned over the years that if you tell them by rational thinking that there is the possibility that there's something other way to look at things you are just an infidel thrown at his path to raise the bad seed of the doubt. Hell has to exist to keep us straight just like the boggey man exists to keep the children straight. Everyone forms beliefs based on what they or told or read. I think your arrogance to suggest that you are somehow immune to this phenomena is hilarious. You missed the point. I don't say anywhere I'm not influenced by what I'm told or read. The difference, which is clear to me, is that I don't make up my mind before reading or listening to anything and then choose to read or listen just to what I believe in and ignore everything else that goes against my belief. I myself was among the millions raised into the religious belief and I don't criticize anyone that has any religious beliefs although it seems clear that some people aren't that informed because they choose to be narrow minded and shut down any information that goes against their beliefs. I don't know rog personally but his posts seem ones from a true fundamentalist. I can be wrong though.
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Post by J-Sav on Apr 14, 2009 13:46:34 GMT -4
You contradicting yourself, and that is a fallacy of the Christian's argument. We have a free will, but Christians believe that God is omniscient right? That doesn't make sense. This would imply that God knows in advance those what we're going to do. If God knows in advance those going to hell what could possibly be the point in creating them? It could only imply a masochist or despotic God who enoyed creating suffering. There is no way that love could possibly conceive such a plan of creation. Christianity has actually turned God into a tyrant who demands His creatures to love and worship Him or be cast into eternal punishment. The Bible portrays old King Nebuchadnezzar as an awful tyrant who demanded all of his kingdom to fall down and worship him or to be cast into the fiery furnace. Sound familiar? It is common for the tyrant to employ fear and terror to force people to become followers and compliant to their merciless demands. Do we not see evangelism employing similar tactics when they try to scare people into the faith as they wave their Bibles and proclaim to save yourselves from the coming wrath of an angry God? Is God gratified because many if not most of those accepting Him are doing so out of fear of the coming terror of His judgment? Would we find love employing such tactics? How Christianity can honestly feel that the religion reflects a God of love is completely beyond me. Love does not attach strings or conditions. Love does not condemn. Love is fair. What loving parents would ever consider casting one of their children away in eternal suffering? What loving parents would even consider bringing children into this world if they knew in advance that some of them would wind up in hell?
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Post by Jogo on Apr 14, 2009 13:49:58 GMT -4
This is another impossible argument that I'm not gonna have but although not having read that book, seems like a pretty hard task to say that the evolution theory and the writtings of the bibble can both be true and make sense together. Proving that past the creation of the 1st living cell would be an hell (no pun intented) of a task. Maybe I'll find the time to read it.
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Post by Kobe Dominates! on Apr 14, 2009 13:54:33 GMT -4
that you can't reconcile science with the Bible, etc.) This is another impossible argument to have so I'm not gonna have it but although not having read that book, seems like a pretty hard task to say that the evolution theory and the writtings of the bibble can both be true and make sense together. Proving that past the creation of the 1st living cell would be an hell (no pun intented) of a task. Google "Theistic evolution"
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Post by Bish on Apr 14, 2009 14:02:50 GMT -4
You contradicting yourself, and that is a fallacy of the Christian's argument. We have a free will, but Christians believe that God is omniscient right? That doesn't make sense. This would imply that God knows in advance those what we're going to do. If God knows in advance those going to hell what could possibly be the point in creating them? It could only imply a masochist or despotic God who enoyed creating suffering. There is no way that love could possibly conceive such a plan of creation. Christianity has actually turned God into a tyrant who demands His creatures to love and worship Him or be cast into eternal punishment. The Bible portrays old King Nebuchadnezzar as an awful tyrant who demanded all of his kingdom to fall down and worship him or to be cast into the fiery furnace. Sound familiar? It is common for the tyrant to employ fear and terror to force people to become followers and compliant to their merciless demands. Do we not see evangelism employing similar tactics when they try to scare people into the faith as they wave their Bibles and proclaim to save yourselves from the coming wrath of an angry God? Is God gratified because many if not most of those accepting Him are doing so out of fear of the coming terror of His judgment? Would we find love employing such tactics? How Christianity can honestly feel that the religion reflects a God of love is completely beyond me. Love does not attach strings or conditions. Love does not condemn. Love is fair. What loving parents would ever consider casting one of their children away in eternal suffering? What loving parents would even consider bringing children into this world if they knew in advance that some of them would wind up in hell? God does not know all the specifics of what will happen in the future - just the possibilities. It's up to us to use our free will to determine which paths we take. If God did know everything that was going to happen (and it was already pre-planned), then prayer and many other things would be useless. The fact that the future is open is what makes things so interesting and really makes an individual's relationship with God so powerful. Seriously, read that first book I linked to. It answers all of your questions really well, and much better than I ever could.
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Post by Bish on Apr 14, 2009 14:11:24 GMT -4
This is another impossible argument to have so I'm not gonna have it but although not having read that book, seems like a pretty hard task to say that the evolution theory and the writtings of the bibble can both be true and make sense together. Proving that past the creation of the 1st living cell would be an hell (no pun intented) of a task. Google "Theistic evolution" That's one way to do it. The main problem is just people who take the Bible 100% literally in all parts (particularly the Creation story), which is just plain silly.
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