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Post by The Trade Launderer on Mar 22, 2017 11:11:00 GMT -4
Westbrook shouldn't even be in the top 3 'Triple double' is such an arbitrary criterion . Dumb ass media narrative. Harden, lebron and kawhi have had objectively much better seasons and a bigger impact on their respective teams Voted for harden, considered kawhi >done once in history >media conspiracy My thoughts: --> The Triple Double narrative is ridiculous. It's an arbitrary set of whole numbers. James Harden is the only player ever to average >26 Points > 10 assists > 7 rebounds and maintain a TS% over 60%. You can pick any set of stats, and if you frame the stats correctly, you can make a great player look like "one of a kind." A "triple double" is easy for us to wrap our heads around, but it's nonsense to base an MVP candidacy on the achievement of a false standard. If RW finishes the season with 9.9 assists instead of 10.0, it will have no bearing on how good of a player he is .... counting stats aren't even indicative of player impact when you look at them in such a warped vaccum. --> RW, and Harden, have been unapologetic stat-padders the entire season. Westbrook leads the league by a wide margin in DRebounds off of FT's....which are Drebounds which are worth almost nothing (a teammate would rebound the ball if not for Westbrook's rebounding hawking). Harden ranks 2nd in this, but is far off from RW. -->Both the Thunder and the Rockets were projected by Vegas, BPI and projection systems to finish with between 42-46 wins (depending on what you look at). The Rockets are going to eclipse that by a ton. The Thunder are playing to expectations. It's a false narrative to suggest the Rockets were always going to be this good. Harden has made his teammates better .... Anderson, Gordon, the Rockets bigs are having career years. Westbrook plays a style that makes it VERY difficult to be his teammate. If Harden played with Westbrook's Supporting cast in OKC, the Thunder would be better. I don't think the same holds if you flip the players. -->Turnovers aren't a concern for either player. Both sustain crazy usage. Turnovers per possessions they hold the ball are totally in line with league average. -->Both play poor defense. Harden is sometimes lazy. Westbrook takes unnecessary gambles. It's why Lebron and Kawhi merit consideration. Westbrook is amazing. I'm not a hater. He's a top 5-6 player. If you define MVP by the player who most clearly lifts his team into contention, however, he does not deserve serious MVP consideration this season.
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Post by kfilament on Mar 22, 2017 12:09:52 GMT -4
I am definitely guilty of overlooking Lebron, just b/c its so normal for him to be fucking insane.
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Post by sirphawk on Mar 22, 2017 21:06:54 GMT -4
I second what kfil said, you get so used to LBJ preforming at that level.
My ranking is still
1 Westbrook 2 LBJ
Though I have to be honest, the argument for LBJ is swaying me quickly
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Post by phdsims on Mar 22, 2017 22:33:31 GMT -4
I hope LeBron is the finals MVP and takes down the warriors again. He's the best player in the league, obviously.
He's not the most valuable player this season and hasn't had the most outstanding performance this season, however.
Take Irving and Love off the Cavs and then stick the Cavs in the West. Would that team be 2 wins better than Cavs with Irving and Love in the East?
Now, my money is on Rockets losing 1st round to Griz when they just get killed down low and there is an increased amount of grabbing allowed on perimeter and the supporting cast can't make a shot. But if miracles happened and Rockets made it all the way to the Finals and played the Cavs. Right now, as things stand, the Rockets would have home court advantage! That's amazing. If only LeBron could upgrade Irving and Love to Beverley and Ryan Anderson? Of course not!
I didn't think Harden would be a legit contender by season's end because I thought the Rockets would tail off, record-wise. Skillz is right, both Westbrook and Harden are chasing stats many nights. But as long as the Rockets have the 3rd best record in the league, I think The Beard has the best argument for MVP.
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Post by "Three Time" on Mar 22, 2017 23:02:23 GMT -4
Skillz is never right
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Post by Derek Fisher on Mar 23, 2017 1:07:38 GMT -4
>done once in history >media conspiracy My thoughts: --> The Triple Double narrative is ridiculous. It's an arbitrary set of whole numbers. James Harden is the only player ever to average >26 Points > 10 assists > 7 rebounds and maintain a TS% over 60%. You can pick any set of stats, and if you frame the stats correctly, you can make a great player look like "one of a kind." A "triple double" is easy for us to wrap our heads around, but it's nonsense to base an MVP candidacy on the achievement of a false standard. If RW finishes the season with 9.9 assists instead of 10.0, it will have no bearing on how good of a player he is .... counting stats aren't even indicative of player impact when you look at them in such a warped vaccum. --> RW, and Harden, have been unapologetic stat-padders the entire season. Westbrook leads the league by a wide margin in DRebounds off of FT's....which are Drebounds which are worth almost nothing (a teammate would rebound the ball if not for Westbrook's rebounding hawking). Harden ranks 2nd in this, but is far off from RW. -->Both the Thunder and the Rockets were projected by Vegas, BPI and projection systems to finish with between 42-46 wins (depending on what you look at). The Rockets are going to eclipse that by a ton. The Thunder are playing to expectations. It's a false narrative to suggest the Rockets were always going to be this good. Harden has made his teammates better .... Anderson, Gordon, the Rockets bigs are having career years. Westbrook plays a style that makes it VERY difficult to be his teammate. If Harden played with Westbrook's Supporting cast in OKC, the Thunder would be better. I don't think the same holds if you flip the players. -->Turnovers aren't a concern for either player. Both sustain crazy usage. Turnovers per possessions they hold the ball are totally in line with league average. -->Both play poor defense. Harden is sometimes lazy. Westbrook takes unnecessary gambles. It's why Lebron and Kawhi merit consideration. Westbrook is amazing. I'm not a hater. He's a top 5-6 player. If you define MVP by the player who most clearly lifts his team into contention, however, he does not deserve serious MVP consideration this season. The Thunder's best offense is literally Westbrook getting a defensive rebound and running into transition. I'm not even kidding, here is an article with the data proving as much fansided.com/2016/12/05/nylon-calculus-westbrook-triple-doubles/Here are all 11 of Westbrooks rebounds tonight: Westbrook rebounds. He challenges Adams for one but the rest seemed fine to me. Note how he immediately pushes the break each time. This is what Donovan wants. Each time Russell doesn't get the rebound, the other player immediately passes it to him before he gets close to the halfcourt line. This slow downs the offense. If Westbrook gets the rebound then the 4 other OKC players can focus on getting into position for their offense. The article linked above proves there is a stark difference when OKC is forced to slow down for the 2-3 seconds Russell doesn't have the ball during another player's defensive rebound. Russell has a 8.4 uncontested rebound average per game versus 2.1 he gets that are contested. LeBron James gets 6.4 uncontested rebounds along with 2.0 contested rebounds, Harden with 6.4 uncontested as well and 1.7 contested boards. Meaning there have been a few nights where Harden gets a near triple double and only "deserved" one of those rebounds. Essentially, my point is that if you are going to bring down the value of Russell Westbrook's rebounds then you can't gaga over LeBron and Harden. I'd even argue LeBron and James even got fraudulent assists for the majority of their career (Mike Brown era LeBron was the worst offender) where they just held the ball for 20 seconds and then dished it to a teammate so their true shooting percentage doesn't get hurt and if they make the shot, they get to stat pad an assist. Plus those two guys have GREAT shooters on their roster, with their usage percentage they SHOULD be getting 8 assists per night. Yet here we are arguing that Russell is a stat padder and LeBron is a fucking monster despite benefiting off of uncontested rebounds himself and having magnificent shooters. In January, the Cavaliers traded for the arguably one of the best shooters in the league. Korver shot poorly in January but it's no coincidence that in February he saw his percentage shoot up to 59% and LeBron averages 10.6 assists. Russell does not have the benefit of having any great shooters on his roster and thus has to work "harder" for his assists though granted he does have a huge usage percentage. Also Westbrook is exceeding LeBron's and Harden's averages by playing 3 whole minutes less than the two. TL;DR All 3 of those guys stat pad and have for the majority of their careers. Russell is putting up bigger numbers and more important to his roster though this year IMO. --- But regarding Kawhi/LeBron needing more consideration for their defensive efforts, I agree but the weight both Harden and Westbrook have on the offensive end outweighs that from my perspective. Neither have the stacked rosters the Spurs and Cavaliers have. LeBron is the league's best player with Durant behind him but 3-6 is pretty debatable between Russell/Harden/Kawhi/Curry.
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Post by springs on Mar 23, 2017 8:59:43 GMT -4
voted Westbrook because I put $50 to win $157 on him winning MVP before the season, and I'm broke and need that money
also had $25 on Lillard winning MVP after hearing Jalen Rose pick him for MVP. Jalen owes me $25 CAD.
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Post by phdsims on Mar 27, 2017 8:46:15 GMT -4
Sunday's game had MVP narrative wrapped around it but I don't think it provided any clarity.
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Post by Peter on Mar 27, 2017 11:25:35 GMT -4
I would vote:
1. Harden 2. Kawhi 3. Westbrook 4. LeBron
All are wonderful players. To support one is not to diminish the others. In the absence of too many overwhelming factors, I am going to knock LeBron this year for his team's horrendous run over the last month or so. He has obviously been their best player this year and even more so in the past month. But this race is close and when the Nets are better than you and when you may end up fucking around and losing the top seed, I have to take you down a notch.
LeBron is still awesome and technically the best player in the world. Perennial MVP, etc. But...
Harden's role as the captain of the D'Antoni Express can't be overstated. He's just an exceptional talent who's made good players very good indeed. Vision, passing, pace, all that stuff. Look at Capela, look at Anderson, Gordon, everyone. None would be where they are without Harden executing the purity of the D'Antoni system, which itself really empowers the PG to make all the calls. He's the coach on the floor.
Kawhi's defense is so good and his offense is vastly improving. Look at those Spurs lineups, they've got no business being as good as they've been this year.
Westbrook's pure energy expenditure deserves commendation and numerically, it is a season for the ages. I have incredible respect for his ability to compete every night. But there is a limit to it and a limit to what he can do to facilitate. Again, these are minute disagreements here.
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Post by The Trade Launderer on Apr 6, 2017 11:59:43 GMT -4
Man, Westbrook has really made his case these past few weeks.
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Post by phdsims on Apr 6, 2017 13:34:55 GMT -4
Yeah I think Westbrook's late season push combined with rockets having nothing to play for seed-wise has pushed Westbrook in the lead among basketbloggernerds.
Although I still vehemently disagree that the thunder supporting cast is significantly worse than rockets. That's just fucking nonsense.
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Post by The Trade Launderer on Apr 9, 2017 19:24:53 GMT -4
Dash, You win
Russ!
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Post by Derek Fisher on Apr 9, 2017 21:17:44 GMT -4
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Post by phdsims on Apr 13, 2017 17:24:05 GMT -4
so, generalizing a bit, it appears the basketblognerds are picking Kawhi (e.g., Lowe), the national pundits are picking Westbrook and the local beat writers are going mostly for Harden.
My biggest beef with the Westbrook arguments are that his team would be shit without him. Before the season, ESPN ranked like the top 200 NBA players in some stupid #NBArank thing. For example, they had Westbrook as the 5th best player and Harden as the 8th best player in the NBA.
Here are their rankings of all Thunder and Rocket players in the top 200:
Thunder: 36. Adams 48. Oladipo 80. Kanter 96. Gibson 158. Roberson 190. McDermott
Rockets: 86. Gordon 89. Anderson 92. Capela 99. Ariza 160. Beverley 198. Williams
So, before the season, the thunder role players had 3 guys ranked above any of the Rocket role players.
Westbrook might be the MVP, but the argument that the Thunder have a worse supporting cast than the Rockets is a garbage argument. If anything, Westbrook's selfish play made them play below expectations and Harden's selfless play had his players play above their norm.
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Post by phdsims on Apr 13, 2017 17:39:06 GMT -4
ok, I'm going to give 50 rp's for all the people that voted in this poll
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