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Post by Steve on Dec 27, 2008 14:40:53 GMT -4
I'm sorry, but it's absurd to consider Joba an ace with such a small sample size. He has talent, no doubt - but to consider him an ace at this stage of his career shows an obvious bias and weakens any other arguments you may have. Also, if we're considering a 3.70 ERA to be ace material - that means that Gil Meche, Joe Saunders, Zack Greinke, Scott Baker, Jesse Litsch, and Jeremy Guthrie are also aces. If you think those guys are aces then you and I have a very different definition of what constitutes an "ace." In defense of the Yankees though, Rivera is definitely the best closer in the game. And has been for the past decade+ THANK YOU...it's tough to get it through someone's thick skull. |
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Post by Seattle Slough on Dec 27, 2008 14:54:44 GMT -4
Nice, Rowland-Smith for the Mariners is an ace apparently now because of his stats, sweet. Its about time I have something to look forward to next baseball season.
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Post by bballmstr32 on Dec 27, 2008 15:51:57 GMT -4
I'm sorry, but it's absurd to consider Joba an ace with such a small sample size. He has talent, no doubt - but to consider him an ace at this stage of his career shows an obvious bias and weakens any other arguments you may have. Also, if we're considering a 3.70 ERA to be ace material - that means that Gil Meche, Joe Saunders, Zack Greinke, Scott Baker, Jesse Litsch, and Jeremy Guthrie are also aces. If you think those guys are aces then you and I have a very different definition of what constitutes an "ace." In defense of the Yankees though, Rivera is definitely the best closer in the game. And has been for the past decade+ Stork, I'm sorry but if you are saying that I qualify a pitcher an ace on whether or not he has a 3.70 ERA, then you either didn't read my argument carefully or you completely misunderstood what I said. I didn't say a 3.70 ERA makes you an ace anywhere. I only said that a 3.70 ERA is actually impressive in the American League where the hitting is much better than in the NL (obviously the DH role plays a big factor here). I said that an ERA in the 3.00s can definitely make you a number one pitcher if you do it consistently (which none of the pitchers that you named have done). However, it is not the only criteria to being an ace. Guys like Wang, Burnett, and CC have done other things to make themselves aces. Like I said, the guys that you just mentioned, none of them even pitch a 3.70 ERA consistently. If you are putting Wang in the same sentence as them, then that is just plain wrong. Wang won 19 games 2 straight seasons with a good ERA on a contending team, how is that not ace-like material? Wang was the winningest pitcher in those 2 seasons and yet you do not think he is an ace? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Burnett led the AL in strikeouts last season and has consistently been a very good pitcher in the AL East, the toughest division in baseball. None of the guys you mentioned have done that. Burnett might not be an ace on a contending team, but he can certainly be an ace on other teams (and definitely in the NL). I'm not saying a 3.70 ERA automatically makes you an ace, but I think its silly to say that a 3.70 ERA in the AL isn't impressive. Guys like Gurthrie and Litsch have been impressive and while they aren't aces right now, they have shown that they are good pitchers in the American League. Guys like Guthrie and Litsch have only started for 2 seasons and none of the pitchers that you mentioned have accomplished what guys like Wang, Burnett, and CC have. Yes, we only have a small sample size with Joba, but you cannot deny the ace-like makeup that this kid has demonstrated so far. He is a classic power pitcher with 4 GOOD PITCHES. Neither of the pitchers that you have mentioned have demonstrated the talent that Joba has. If that is not enough for you, then look at the stats. Neither of the guys mentioned can strike out batters at the same rate that Joba can. I'm not saying that strikeouts are the only indication of a great pitcher, but if you can't strike out batters, you have to be excellent in other ways. For example, Wang has an insane sinker that he uses to get batters to ground out. Unfortunately, I cannot offer a full season of stats to back up the argument that Joba is an ace right now and I'll fully admit that. I'll even admit that I'm biased, after all, I'm a Yankees fan and I've seen Joba pitch the last 2 seasons more than the average baseball fan, so I truly do believe the kid is an ace right now. But I'm not the only one that believes this. Go ask the Red Sox if they think Joba is an ace after watching him outpitch Beckett in one of his starts last season. Like I said, I can't give you enough proof to demonstrate that Joba is an ace right now, but watch him this season as a starter. I guarantee you his stats will be impressive and his performance will be ace-like if he is sent out to pitch as a starter every 5th day. He isn't perfect and he can improve in some areas. For example, he needs to cut down on his walks. But you cannot deny that some of the things that he does are so well that he can get away with some of the mistakes that he makes and still have excellent production. His fastball and slider are two of the best pitches in the American League right now. |
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Post by bballmstr32 on Dec 27, 2008 15:58:58 GMT -4
I'm sorry, but it's absurd to consider Joba an ace with such a small sample size. He has talent, no doubt - but to consider him an ace at this stage of his career shows an obvious bias and weakens any other arguments you may have. Also, if we're considering a 3.70 ERA to be ace material - that means that Gil Meche, Joe Saunders, Zack Greinke, Scott Baker, Jesse Litsch, and Jeremy Guthrie are also aces. If you think those guys are aces then you and I have a very different definition of what constitutes an "ace." In defense of the Yankees though, Rivera is definitely the best closer in the game. And has been for the past decade+ THANK YOU...it's tough to get it through someone's thick skull. Please, I have the thick skull because I'm simply backing my arguments up with clear reasoning? You just made a bunch of contradictory arguments and then when I responded to them, you let someone else make your argument for you. No one has to believe what you say just because you say it. You have done nothing to convince me that I'm wrong. At least Stork attempted to respond to my argument. What have you done? |
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Post by Steve on Dec 27, 2008 19:56:50 GMT -4
THANK YOU...it's tough to get it through someone's thick skull. Please, I have the thick skull because I'm simply backing my arguments up with clear reasoning? You just made a bunch of contradictory arguments and then when I responded to them, you let someone else make your argument for you. No one has to believe what you say just because you say it. You have done nothing to convince me that I'm wrong. At least Stork attempted to respond to my argument. What have you done? Why argue with a Yankee fan? It's like arguing against a brick wall...you're not going to get anywhere. You saying Joba Chamberlain, Wang, and Burnett are Aces is all that needs to be said about you. Wang had a ton of wins because he had a great offense behind him those 2 Years...wins is a completely overrated stat in determining if a pitcher is good or great. That will never get you to be labeled an Ace. Hamels Era was 3.09 which is very good (not sure if you knew that), but only had 14 wins (he had 10 losses). Wang's 2 seasons of about 3.65 ERA netted him 38 wins. His career WHIP is 1.29 to Hamels 1.14 (he had a WHIP of 1.08 which is phenomenal), which is clearly superior. They're both pretty good in eating up innings...but um, you know King Cole takes it to another level in the playoffs being the NLCS and WS MVP and all. Hamels stuff is way better than Wang as he has trouble clearing 100 K's. I love how you use all kinds of arguments to have one of your beloved Yanks to be labeled an "ACE". What's next? Phil Hughes is Ace material because he was so hyped? Chill, dude, you're going to have a very good team...just stop labeling someone an ACE or calling your bullpen better than a team just coming off of a Championship that had the best bullpen last year. |
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Post by bballmstr32 on Dec 27, 2008 21:59:19 GMT -4
I never said the Yankees bullpen was better than the Phillies' bullpen, now you are just putting words in my mouth. Likewise, I never said Wang was better than Hamels. I consider Hamels an ace just like I consider Wang an ace. Do I think Hamels is a better pitcher than Wang? Of course I do. I'm not biased to the point that I will blindly defend any Yankee. Hell, I also think Johan Santana is better than CC Sabathia and I think we messed up by not trading for Santana.
I agree that wins is an overrated stat. However, when you put the whole package together, Wang has done well in every stat except for strikeouts. Unless you are saying an ace has to be excellent in getting strikeouts, it is clear Wang is an ace because he has a good WHIP, good ERA, gets a ton of wins, etc.
Burnett, in my opinion, has ace-like stuff WHEN HEALTHY. I don't know how many people would disagree with me on that. Why do you think so many players hate going up against AJ? His stuff is nasty. I think we overpaid for him big time, but there is no disputing that when the guy is healthy, he has legit stuff.
I already made my argument for Joba so I'm not going to make it again. The argument I made for him is more subjective on my thoughts about him and relies on a small sample size. But keep a close eye on him this season, he will impress you.
I don't think Hughes is an ace at all. I think he has excellent stuff but he clearly hasn't been able to put it all together yet. He had a vision problem and has corrected it with glasses, so I think he has taken a positive step forward in that regard. I do actually believe he will be a good #2 pitcher down the line, but he clearly isn't a top of the rotation pitcher right now. Like I said, I thought we should have made that Santana deal and I would have given up Hughes in it.
Look, I'm not saying anything negative about the Phillies nor have I ever said anything bad about them. You guys deserved a championship this season and you got it. I just don't get why you are putting words in my mouth and you assume all of us Yankee fans hate the Phillies. We aren't Mets fans, I have nothing against the Phillies whatsoever and I never even said anything remotely negative about them. Which is why it was puzzling to me to see you just lash out at me earlier in this thread out of nowhere.
The only thing I said was that the Yankees were now the team to beat because they just spent over $400 million this off-season and have addressed their weaknesses. When you add in the fact that they won 89 games last season (a season where they were injury plagued and underachieved) I don't think it is a stretch at all to say that they are the team to beat on paper (which assumes everyone is healthy).
I think the Phillies are obviously a very good team. Believe it or not, I rooted for them in the NL last season in the playoffs and I also rooted for them in this season's NL playoffs. Not having Utley till May will hurt, but I think you guys will be fine until he comes back. Losing Pat the bat will also be a blow, but I don't think it will make you guys significantly worse. Good luck to your team this season.
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Post by Steve on Dec 28, 2008 15:08:07 GMT -4
I never said the Yankees bullpen was better than the Phillies' bullpen, now you are just putting words in my mouth. Likewise, I never said Wang was better than Hamels. I consider Hamels an ace just like I consider Wang an ace. Do I think Hamels is a better pitcher than Wang? Of course I do. I'm not biased to the point that I will blindly defend any Yankee. Hell, I also think Johan Santana is better than CC Sabathia and I think we messed up by not trading for Santana. I agree that wins is an overrated stat. However, when you put the whole package together, Wang has done well in every stat except for strikeouts. Unless you are saying an ace has to be excellent in getting strikeouts, it is clear Wang is an ace because he has a good WHIP, good ERA, gets a ton of wins, etc. Burnett, in my opinion, has ace-like stuff WHEN HEALTHY. I don't know how many people would disagree with me on that. Why do you think so many players hate going up against AJ? His stuff is nasty. I think we overpaid for him big time, but there is no disputing that when the guy is healthy, he has legit stuff. I already made my argument for Joba so I'm not going to make it again. The argument I made for him is more subjective on my thoughts about him and relies on a small sample size. But keep a close eye on him this season, he will impress you. I don't think Hughes is an ace at all. I think he has excellent stuff but he clearly hasn't been able to put it all together yet. He had a vision problem and has corrected it with glasses, so I think he has taken a positive step forward in that regard. I do actually believe he will be a good #2 pitcher down the line, but he clearly isn't a top of the rotation pitcher right now. Like I said, I thought we should have made that Santana deal and I would have given up Hughes in it. Look, I'm not saying anything negative about the Phillies nor have I ever said anything bad about them. You guys deserved a championship this season and you got it. I just don't get why you are putting words in my mouth and you assume all of us Yankee fans hate the Phillies. We aren't Mets fans, I have nothing against the Phillies whatsoever and I never even said anything remotely negative about them. Which is why it was puzzling to me to see you just lash out at me earlier in this thread out of nowhere. The only thing I said was that the Yankees were now the team to beat because they just spent over $400 million this off-season and have addressed their weaknesses. When you add in the fact that they won 89 games last season (a season where they were injury plagued and underachieved) I don't think it is a stretch at all to say that they are the team to beat on paper (which assumes everyone is healthy). I think the Phillies are obviously a very good team. Believe it or not, I rooted for them in the NL last season in the playoffs and I also rooted for them in this season's NL playoffs. Not having Utley till May will hurt, but I think you guys will be fine until he comes back. Losing Pat the bat will also be a blow, but I don't think it will make you guys significantly worse. Good luck to your team this season. I can agree with you on that. You know, losing Utley will hurt a little, but it might be good for him. The guy goes all-out every day and he could use a nice break even if he won't say he does. There's going to be some big-time pressure on your coach to get it done. You guys should win the division, but it isn't going to be easy with Tampa and Boston. Tampa is only going to get better because of there younger players continuing to develop and they add David Price to the rotation. And Boston is always a good team so it should be very interesting on how this plays out in the AL East. |
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Post by Seattle Slough on Dec 28, 2008 17:02:25 GMT -4
arguing with a yankee fan is like arguing with somebody about politics or religion, just don't its a waste of time cause most of them are fairly ignorant and don't see all the sides.
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Post by bballmstr32 on Dec 28, 2008 17:50:57 GMT -4
I agree Steve, I think there is going to be a ton of pressure on the Yanks to win it all. On paper, we have the talent to come out of the AL, but thats why the games still have to be played.
One time, you are the one that is fairly ignorant just for making that statement.
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Post by Jogo on Dec 28, 2008 22:51:50 GMT -4
All in all, there will be one reason for me to cheer the Yankees next season since Teixeira has portuguese parents
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Post by Seattle Slough on Dec 28, 2008 23:34:26 GMT -4
How am I ignorant when its a true statement?
Your already defending the Yanks strongly and the season hasn't even started yet,lol. The season isn't even close to being started yet, but your making rebuttle's for your team, that is an act of someone that doesn't see the other side and is ignorant.
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Post by bballmstr32 on Dec 29, 2008 0:19:20 GMT -4
How am I ignorant when its a true statement? Your already defending the Yanks strongly and the season hasn't even started yet,lol. The season isn't even close to being started yet, but your making rebuttle's for your team, that is an act of someone that doesn't see the other side and is ignorant. lol, you crack me up Just because I'm defending my team and making a reasoned argument, I don't see the other side of things and I'm ignorant? That makes no sense whatsoever. I didn't just spit out Yankee homerism in my arguments, I used stats as supporting evidence and I clearly stated that I don't agree with everything the Yankees have done. At the same time, I also praised other teams and players (I said the Phillies will be good again, I said Papelbon is an elite closer, etc.). You make me laugh. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 29, 2008 9:00:21 GMT -4
Tex is good, but he seams to suck dick in the postseason. So instead of picking up a clutch hitter for October they got another one of those guys that will get them to October like A-rod, then they both won't be worth their money when it counts. I didn't see this until now, but did you watch the Postseason? Teix batted .467 with a .550 OB. I guess that's not clutch, huh? |
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