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Post by Dan on Apr 14, 2009 23:57:35 GMT -4
Thanks for correcting me, but that is a little lame for all you can say is correct me, because I didn't use past tense. I know, mostly I was just giving you crap. I know how it feels to be ganged up by an angry mob of posters who don't agree with you. Even though I don't agree with you in this argument either, I won't be the latest to hop on you.
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Post by Seattle Slough on Apr 15, 2009 0:04:09 GMT -4
LOL, won't be the last.
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Post by cupcrazy01 on Apr 15, 2009 18:00:08 GMT -4
Again, I stress the point cup. Can you give me examples that don't include a book that was voted on by man, and manipulated by man throughout the centuries? Yes, I did copy that sentence, but it sums it up for me. I couldn't have said it any better. Cup, I believe Our God is great, and my my heart and reason tells me that there is a God. But maybe I just believe that our God is much much more than the one depicted in the Bible, and what you Christians tell us. I respect you guy's faith. I still have to go to church from time to time and sit a listen to my mother preach to me and I have to just sit there and take it out of respect of her. But to create being that the Lord knows is going to go to hell makes no sense to me. Have you ever asked why He would do that? Of course, because you're supposed have faith, and don't question it. I could be wrong, and I acknowledge that. Have you ever thought that you could be wrong too? None of us know the truths really. I just know that when I see a sunset, experience the love of family or a significant other, or see the good in people, look at the SF bay on a beautiful day, that believe wholeheartedly that there is a God. You can't tell me that everything just happened. There is intelligent design. I experience something everyday that tell me that there something spiritual about being here on Earth. I don't need a special sign, or have believe in stories, etc to see that God is great, because I see His greatness everyday. I wouldn't even care what you believe, because Deist promotes peace and don't judge people. But what I have a problem with is the conflict that religion has caused througout the world over time. This is a fact of history. Unlike some of your evidence, I can go to accurate books to prove my point. Most wars have been faught in the name of God. And with the new technology and weaponary, there is a real problem right now that I feel needs to be addressed. Because it's people of faiths that make this world scary, and is why alot of the world is divided. I know I can't change your mind, but it's just logical thinking to see that this why most of our world is divided. Like Bish, I'll suggest other sources who can explain my point better than myself. Concerning the trustworthiness of the Scriptures: R.C. Sproul: www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/revelation.htmlJohn Piper: www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByDate/2008/2629_Why_I_Trust_the_Scriptures/Tim Challies: www.spiritone.com/~wing/inerrancy.htm(These resources discuss the topics of reliability, infallibility and how the Bible came to be one volume of 66 different books/letters) I strongly encourage those who dismiss the Bible out of hand to read these informative articles. It is not denied that the Bible is written by human authors, but that God, through the Holy Spirit, inspired those authors and gave us His Word.
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Post by cupcrazy01 on Apr 15, 2009 18:35:27 GMT -4
For example, when you say God knows ALL but doesn't know the future only possibilities you are making adjustments just so what you say doesn't sound so silly and is actually something you can live with. Look back - I never said that actually. It's all over the Bible though that God doesn't know what is going to happen, that he can change his mind, that he wants to guide us in the right direction but leaves it up to us to make decisions, wants us to use prayer as a tool to make things happen, etc. I agree with you though that this type of discussion can get really long and go nowhere. That's why I suggested some books that I've found really interesting on subjects that have been brought up here. It's a more direct and less confrontational way to do some research from an outside party if you have the inclination in the future. I've never been one to push my beliefs on anyone, but I will throw out ideas and things like book recommendations from time to time when it seems to fit with the conversation at hand. The Bible teaches predestination, that God indeed has chosen His people from before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. Now, the Bible also teaches that God gives an invitation to those who will believe in Him through His Son Jesus Christ: John 3:16 Romans 13:10 Revelation 22:17However, it is important to note that "free will" is not a biblical term, because mankind's will is bound to sin. This is human depravity, a topic that was debated on these forums last year, but I'm happy to go back over that if anyone so wishes. My point in this is that God surely knows everything that is going to happen, he is omniscient, and he does not change His mind, he is immutable, two attributes of God that, if He were without them, He would not be God. Now, while there appear to be a paradox here, allow me to quote John MacArthur on the matter (regarding paradoxes in the Bible): Note: He is speaking to his congregation, so he is going to assume he is speaking to those who already believe in the Bible. I know some of you do not, but this will still be helpful to anyone who is willing to read it:
____________________________________ All right, everybody believes the Bible, right? Then you believe in predestination. You say, “No, I was raised a Methodist.” I don't care what you were raised, you believe in predestination, if you believe the Bible, because in Ephesians 1, it says, He predestined us before the foundation of the world. It says in Revelation, He has written our names in the Lamb’s Book of Life from before the foundation of the world. It uses the word predestination. Everyone believes in that, who believes the Bible. God predetermined who would be saved. Before they were ever born. That's in the Bible. You believe it. So, just accept that you believe it. Now, was not that easy? Absolutely painless. You believe that.
The Bible also says, “Whosoever will may come. Him who cometh to me I will in no wise cast out? You believe that? Okay. So, you believe that, too. So, you believe in man’s volition. Free will is not a biblical term, because man’s will isn't really free. It is bound by sin.
When you became a Christian, did you say to yourself, “Oh! I am elect! I think, I'll get saved.” No. No, you made a decision, didn’t you? You made a choice.
So, the Bible teaches God’s predestining plan, God’s electing plan. It says that over and over, "elect" according to the foreknowledge of God, "elect" in Him. You know, I have many people in that city, he said, you know, in the book of Acts who weren't even saved, yet, but they were already considered His people because they were elect. So, you believe all of that. Then, you believe in man’s choice as well. So, you believe both of those things.
The problem is not whether you believe those. The problem is how you harmonize them, right? You know how you harmonize them? No, you don't. You don't know how to harmonize them. Because there is no way to harmonize them. And, the way that I like to illustrate it is this, Is Jesus God or man? Both. Is He all man? 100 % man? 100 % God? How can He be 200 %? It is a paradox. Who wrote Romans? Paul wrote Romans? God wrote Romans. They alternated verses? Who wrote Romans? Was it Paul’s words from his vocabulary and his heart? Was every word inspired by the Spirit of God? How could every single word come out of the mind of God, and yet, Paul feel that every single word came out of his own heart? You know what is going to happen if you try to synthesize those things? Okay. You know what happened in the early church councils? They got so confused and said, “Okay, he is half God and half man.” And, you know what you have got when you have half God and half man? Nothing. What is half a man? There is no such thing. What is half a God? A nothing. So they come up with heresy. So, on the one hand they said he is all deity and the idea that he was a physical being is just a phantom. And, they came up with a phantom view. And the others said, “No. He was all man, and he is not deity at all. Because they tried to resolve it, they came up with heresy every time. They either said he is all God and not man, or all man and not God, or half and half, and that is a nothing. You have to leave the paradox.
Now, when you come to the writing of the Bible, some say that it can't be all Paul and all the Holy Spirit, so Paul just wrote what the Holy Spirit told him, and it all really the Holy Spirit. Is that true? You have just eliminated the Pauline authorship. But, on the other hand, if you say, “It is all Paul, like the liberals do and none of the Holy Spirit.” Then, you have eliminated God.
Let me ask you another question. Who lives your Christian life? Who? Do you? Do you? I hope you do. Is it just you out there living it up? "Not I, but," what? "Christ liveth in me. Nevertheless," what? "I live. Yet, not I, but Christ." Well, if it is all Christ, then I become a quietist: "Let go and let God." And, you have that movement. On the other hand, if you say, “It's me,” I become a pietist and a legalist. You just have to handle both and leave them in a paradox.
When it comes down to the whole area of sovereignty and will, you got to leave them where they are. And, as soon as you try to resolve them, you get all of the Calvinists who run over to this end of the seesaw and start screaming, “sovereignty, sovereignty! (bang) And, down goes the scale, right? And, they got God doing everything. One guy came to me one day and said, “God even makes you sin.” That is the ultimate...and, then on the other hand, you have got the Armenians who say, “No, no, no, it is all us, it is all us, it is all us.” And, if it is all us, folks, we are really in trouble. Why don’t you leave it alone?
Then you have the Baptists. Oh, the Baptists. And, the Baptists come together in the middle and they say, “Well, it is a little bit of predestination and a little bit of free will. You see, God looks down the road and He says, “Oh, that is what they are going to do. I see, so that is what I will choose..." No! Just leave it alone.
So, the best way to solve that problem is to believe both and let God resolve it. Now, if you could resolve all those problems, you would be God. And, then there would be other problems we have to deal with.
Now, let me tell you something. One of the greatest marks of the inspiration of the scripture is the fact that it has those incomprehensible paradoxes. Because, if a man or men had written that book, they never would have, number one, conceived them; number two, they never would have left them there. They would have resolved them. The fact that they are there and they stand all over the place in the Bible is one of the truest proofs that God of an infinite mind far beyond our own wrote those things. And, the very fact that there are those irreconcilable apparent paradoxes in scripture speaks of divine authorship. God understands how they harmonize. We don’t. And, that means God has a greater mind than we do. Aren’t you glad about that? (Emphasis mine).
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Post by rogworld1991 on Apr 15, 2009 23:39:37 GMT -4
Well, I guess the subject changed. IDK wahts going on ima read through stuff tommorow and jump back in
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Post by Seattle Slough on Apr 15, 2009 23:59:49 GMT -4
Cup wrote: "One of the greatest marks of the inspiration of the scripture is the fact that it has those incomprehensible paradoxes. Because, if a man or men had written that book, they never would have, number one, conceived them; number two, they never would have left them there. They would have resolved them. The fact that they are there and they stand all over the place in the Bible is one of the truest proofs that God of an infinite mind far beyond our own wrote those things. And, the very fact that there are those irreconcilable apparent paradoxes in scripture speaks of divine authorship. God understands how they harmonize. We don’t. And, that means God has a greater mind than we do."
So then, how do people write fiction books? It's fairly obvious that people who write fiction, are making that shit up. 1. They are humans and are making up a story with their mind, dream, or some kind of idea they received from another human. 2. Those books do not explain anything about them being real or not, and that is why that us as humans have categorized those books as make-believe. 3. So as much as you want to say anything from the bible or anything that another human has written, there is still no proof that your backing is infinite proof of where we came from.
I do appreciate how much you know and study something though, as I'm sure you read in my PC, regardless whether it was sarcastic or not. I respect your knowledge and reading that you put forth to what you believe in.
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Post by Bish on Apr 16, 2009 0:46:20 GMT -4
I don't know Cup, I just don't buy a lot of that. There are places all over the Bible where God regrets things he does or changes his mind (Genesis 6:6, 1 Samuel 15:10, 1 Samuel 15:35, Jeremiah 18:8-10). Even in Revelation, God warns that he may blot people's names out of the Book of Life based on their actions, indicating that nothing has been entirely pre-determined and things can be changed (for the positive or the negative). I think God has a plan and he is orchestrating things in general, sometimes very directly and other times more indirectly, but he leaves it up to us to figure out how to get there. Occasionally we will choose the wrong path, causing him unimaginable grief. Other times, God's (and others') constant striving for us pays off, leading to great things and huge celebration. I really like this general idea, because I think it makes God that much more exciting, relatable, and even powerful. It also really drives home the point that prayer is vitally important, because you truly can change things - they weren't long ago predetermined and set in stone, never to be altered. Here is a great snippet from the book "God of the Possible" that I referenced previously: "When a person is in a genuine relationship with another, willingness to adjust to them is always considered a virtue. Why should this apply to people but not to God?
On the contrary, since God is the epitome of everything we deem praiseworthy, and since we ordinarily consider responsiveness to be praiseworthy, should we not be inclined to view God as the most responsive being imaginable? He never changes his perfect character, of course, for this would not be praiseworthy. But as Scripture indicates, he is wonderfully willing and able to adjust his plans and emotions as his relationship with us calls for it."That's just one of many good points made in that book. I'd love to hear yours or anyone else's thoughts on it. The very idea of a "God" is something none of us can truly understand, especially when the best tool we have for doing so is a book that is 2000 years old that was written for an entirely different culture in a very different time in the world's history. That's why I think it's important to always keep seeking and questioning in life, and trying to figure how things fit in with our current reality. Honest seeking will always be rewarded. For all I know, my beliefs could be totally wrong, but they make the most sense of anything I've come across so far. The main thing I can do is continue to grow and learn and find ways to better understand my faith and the world around me. That, and figure out how to win another title in SLOR.
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Post by cupcrazy01 on Apr 16, 2009 12:48:11 GMT -4
Re: The belief that God does not know all things that will happen and how He can grieve over things that do happen
John Piper explains:
God knows all things including all future events and He "accomplishes all things according to the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
God says in Isaiah 46:9,10,
I am God and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand and I will accomplish all my purpose.'
You could hardly ask for a more succinct statement of God's omniscience and His sovereignty. But if that is not palatable for you, I simply ask for a sympathetic suspension of disbelief while you consider the last stage of my proposed solution (which is not new with me). I am going to assume that God is never frustrated in the performance of His ultimate purposes. Why, then, should such a God ever grieve over anything?
I want to acknowledge that my weak efforts to understand the divine mind and heart are not the least impressive to God but that He probably smiles with fatherly condescension on my baby talk. But He has encouraged us (infants that we are) to seek wisdom and to understand His ways, because He has laid Himself open to us in the Bible. And so I push further up and further in until there are no more signposts and He puts a roadblock in the way.
I think the reason that our sovereign God can grieve over sin is that He has the ability to view it and its consequences in a limited focus that excludes certain other parts of reality. By showing us His grief He reveals to us this capacity of narrow focus and enables us to understand our own apparently ambivalent attitude toward sin and destruction. God's grief over the sinfulness and loss of man reveals that in and of itself sin is not praiseworthy or good or delightful or pleasing to God. In relation to its own ends it is hateful to Him and grievous. As an attitude or an act which aims to dishonor God sin grieves God. The death and suffering of the wicked, considered simply as the loss and destruction of human life is not a delight to God, but a pang.
God's grief over sin and condemnation is owing, therefore, to His ability to view sin and condemnation as ends in themselves, which thus considered are grievous. But He is not an eternally unhappy or frustrated God because He can and does view sin and condemnation in relation to the universality of things where it is considered not for its ends but for God's ultimate ends through its existence. When God looks at the totality of redemptive history in this way, He rejoices at what He sees, with even sin and condemnation redounding to His great glory. ________________________
More Piper:
Genesis 6:5-6
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Observations:
1. In view of the warning in 1 Samuel 15:29 that, "The Glory of Israel will not lie or repent; he is not a man, that he should repent," we are slow to attribute human-like repentance to God. 2. Rather it is plausible to find a "strange" repentance that is unlike anything we experience, namely, that God regrets what he foreknew - that the human race would fall into sin and be in need of a savior. 3. We are led to believe that God did foreknow this because of 2 Timothy 1:9 "God has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity." If the grace we needed in Christ was foreknown (even planned) from eternity, then the fall and the misery of man was known too. 4. In 1 Chronicles 29:18 David prays for the people after they have so willingly given to build the temple: "O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, our fathers, preserve this forever in the intentions of the heart of Thy people, and direct their heart to Thee." This phrase is the same as the one in Genesis 6:5 but here it seems as if David assumes that God can govern what "intents of the heart" we have. If so, we should not assume too quickly that God can't know what they are in the future. 5. I propose that God created the world already feeling both the joy of this final salvation and the grief of the intervening fall and misery. When the fall and misery reached a height in Genesis 6:6 it is not unfitting for God to express this sorrow the way he does. _____________________
John MacArthur on Genesis 6:6:
Verse 6, "The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth and He was grieved in His heart." This is what He felt. He felt sadness. He felt grief over what man had become. And the Lord expressed that sorrow in human terms. It was as if He was sorry He made them. Obviously God isn't sorry in the sense that He was getting information He didn't expect. He wasn't sorry in the sense that it hadn't turned out the way He thought it would, He knew exactly how it would turn out. But that didn't make Him any less sorrowful and it didn't make man any less guilty. And His sadness is not tied to some surprise, but His sadness is tied to the fact that He has no choice. His holiness demands destruction. It is necessary, it is inevitable, it is consistent with who He is. His holy nature has no choice but to punish him, and that brings Him grief.
___________________
These verses you reference, Bish, are all about God's grief over humanity and its sin. It does not mean or imply that He didn't know this was going to happen.
Roy Ingle explains this further by citing what the verse in the original manuscript in Hebrew means:
"What are we to do with the passages that speak of God repenting. Are we to conclude, as Greg Boyd does, that God learns from His own decisions and because He does not know the future, He relents, changes His mind, or repents from His own decisions or the decisions of others. Examples of this would be Genesis 6:6 or 1 Samuel 15:11, 35. Several points could be made. First, 1 Samuel 15:29 shows that God does not lie or relent for He is not a man that He should have regret. No decision God makes it bad but is perfect and He does not relent from His decisions since He is perfect in His power and in His knowledge. Second, Dr. Cottrell points out that the Hebrew word for repent (KJV) nacham is often translated in several ways in various translations. The NIV actually does the best job of translating nacham as "was grieved" since the context of the usage of the word clearly is showing God's grief over the events taking place such as humanity's sinfulness in Genesis 6:6-7 or King Saul's disobedience in 1 Samuel 15:9. Cottrell goes on to point out that the word nacham does not necessarily imply a change of mind based on ignorance but rather denotes strong feelings." ____________________________________
As for the "blotting out of names from the Book of Life," (Revelation 3:5), John MacArthur says this in a sermon:
"And I will not erase his name from the Book of Life but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." Now stay with me for a moment, I need to explain this because people ask this all the time. He says, "I will not erase his name from the Book of Life." People will say to me, "Does this mean that God might erase my name from the Book of Life?" I can't believe people ask that question because the verse says, "I will not erase his name from the Book of Life." What would make someone think that He might when He just said He won't? How can you turn a promise into a threat?
This doesn't imply that God puts names in and takes them out at random. You say, "Now wait a minute. Back in Exodus 32 verse 33 the Lord said to Moses, `Whoever has sinned against Me, I'll blot him out of My book.' Now do we have a contradiction? In Exodus 32 God says I will blot you out of my book, in Revelation 3 He says I will not erase you out of My book, what's the issue?"
Very simple. In Exodus 32:33 it doesn't say "the Book of Life," it is not the Book of Life. Those verses refer to an untimely death. That's all He's saying. I'll remove them from the world, I'll take them out of the book of those who are alive. It is not the book of the redeemed. God will take the life of someone, He will remove their life but He will never remove their salvation. If you have any question about that, you need to read Romans 8 verses 26 to 39 again. No, God put the names in before the foundation of the world and He put them in there because He was going to bring about eternal salvation. And under no circumstances will He erase those names. Your salvation was sealed before the world began. God may take your life for sin, but He will never take your salvation.
In John's day, a king always kept a register. If a man committed a crime against the state, or if he died, his name was erased. So they always kept the register of the city accurate. When you died, your name was erased, you were taken off the roll. Or if you committed a crime you were erased, your name was taken off the roll. Christ is saying the king, the mayor, whoever runs your city might take your name off the list for something you've done, but, believe Me, I will never take your name off My list. You see, He's giving them encouragement, isn't He? He's saying, "I'm talking strong talk here and I'm talking about coming like a thief and bringing great harm and I'm talking about coming in judgment but I know you that are the overcomers, you have nothing to fear, you're going to wear white, you're going to be eternally holy and there is nothing that make me ever take your name out of My book, in fact just the opposite. I will confess your name before My Father and before His angels."
What do You mean by that? I will affirm that you belong to Me. In the post-Reformation period of 1517 to 1750, the church in terrible acts of excommunication separated souls from the church and consigned them to hell. They got heavy into excommunication. Here the Lord is simply saying...the world may excommunicate you, the dead churches may excommunicate you off their rolls, I will never do that. The Pope's henchmen stood in the presence of the fearless preacher, Savanna Rolla(??), they said, "I separate you from the church militant and triumphant." They said that to Savanna Rolla said, "From the church militant, yes. From the church triumphant, no." You cannot be separated, you cannot be erased.
On October 21, 1517 Martin Luther was excommunicated. Martin Luther's name was blotted out of the church books. His soul was consigned to everlasting hell and damnation. Jesus is saying, they may take you out of their books, you pure people, you whose garments are not defiled, they may kick you out of their dead church, but I'll never erase you out of My book. That's security. Rather, "I will confess your name before My Father and before His angels." You remember the words of Jesus? "If you confess Me before men," Matthew 10:32, "I'll confess you before My Father who is in heaven." ________________________
OK, now, if anyone is actually still reading this and still with me, I will address the quote from the book Bish referenced.
This concept clearly contradicts Scripture, specifically Proverbs 3:5 which exhorts us to not lean on our own human understanding but to trust in the LORD our God. Humans, as creatures created by God, have no right to demand things of God or to create a god for themselves that fits their character or likeness. This is idolatry, specifically forbidden by the first commandment and strongly warned against in Romans 1.
He never changes his perfect character...this is correct, but that perfect character includes His immutability and His holiness. If He is unchangeable, He will not "adjust" to what a creature wants, because surely different people want different gods that fit their selfish wants and desires. Sadly, this has infected Christianity and allows for the tragic fads such as the prosperity gospel pushed by televangelists and the seeker-sensitive movement which waters down the gospel and tries to adjust to want non-churchgoers like to get them to come to their church.
There is no Scriptural evidence that He "is wonderfully willing and able to adjust his plans and emotions as his relationship with us calls for it."
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Post by cupcrazy01 on Apr 16, 2009 12:59:21 GMT -4
So then, how do people write fiction books? It's fairly obvious that people who write fiction, are making that shit up. 1. They are humans and are making up a story with their mind, dream, or some kind of idea they received from another human. 2. Those books do not explain anything about them being real or not, and that is why that us as humans have categorized those books as make-believe. 3. So as much as you want to say anything from the bible or anything that another human has written, there is still no proof that your backing is infinite proof of where we came from. I do appreciate how much you know and study something though, as I'm sure you read in my PC, regardless whether it was sarcastic or not. I respect your knowledge and reading that you put forth to what you believe in. The point MacArthur is making is that no human writer would write such fiction with paradoxes like those he talks about without resolving them, because our human logic demands that. Some of the concepts taught in the Bible, like the Holy Trinity, are just beyond our finite and limited understanding. But Scripture teaches that, and makes no secrets about it. Your point that none of this really proves anything, because I can't prove that the Bible is indeed the Word of God, well we can go in the same direction on books that teach and preach evolution or atheism or whatever else. I only hope that those of you who are interested will indeed search the Scriptures and see just how perfectly it describes human nature, as well as the prescription for that sinfulness: a gracious God who sent His Son to die a horrible, cursed death on a cross so that those who would believe in Him would be saved, and God would be glorified, as He is in all things.
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Post by Bish on Apr 16, 2009 13:35:49 GMT -4
I think we have to agree to disagree on a lot of this. I certainly can't make the case as eloquently as it's stated in Boyd's book or elsewhere, and there are literally dozens more instances in the Bible where God gives someone a second chance, decides to add years to someone's life, expresses regret or sorrow over an outcome, etc.
And while I imagine in a lot of cases these types of things were a part of his overall plan, I think it's clear that he chooses to let a lot of the details play out on their own. Otherwise, there is really no good way to explain a lot of the suffering in the world, or to justify why millions of people are created that will never be saved. It also makes prayer essentially worthless outside of being used for praise, and in my opinion it makes much of God's character in the Bible less believable.
I think you're totally missing the point of that quote, as well. It's not that God changes to adjust to our selfish, worldly desires. It's more that because God lets us act as our own free agents, as the conductor or director or whatever analogy you want to use, he will continually interact with us in different ways and try new things as a part of his grand plan.
And like I said before, I think it's important to try to understand the Bible for what it is, when it was written, and who it was written to at the time. If you don't filter that through our post-modern world and culture, then it's far too easy to do things like fall into inexplainable positions, ignore science and logic, and paint God and Christianity into a corner that can barely co-exist with the world today and will continue to drive people away rather than draw in sincere seekers.
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Post by cupcrazy01 on Apr 16, 2009 15:06:41 GMT -4
I think we have to agree to disagree on a lot of this. I certainly can't make the case as eloquently as it's stated in Boyd's book or elsewhere, and there are literally dozens more instances in the Bible where God gives someone a second chance, decides to add years to someone's life, expresses regret or sorrow over an outcome, etc. I have no issue with any of these instances, because they are certainly all true. God gives billions of people second, third, fourth, etc. chances because once we sin, which we all do, we deserve death. After that, everything is mercy and grace, all from God, who deserves our praise for this very reason. His decision on adding years to life was made before the foundation of the world, just as his decision to take them away was. And as I just used examples about, his expressions of sorrow and regret are because while He does know everything that will happen, it doesn't change the fact that it makes Him sorrowful that it does happen. Piper has used this example: Think of it like spanking a child. You have to do it, and it makes you sad that you must, but you are also doing it for a purpose: to correct the behavior of the child so that they learn not to do whatever they did again. You can be sorrowful and do things that you are sad about while at the same time be doing something that has a purpose and will better serve your child down the road. The issue we had was God's knowledge, but all that is in my last post and while I understand your "agree to disagree" stance, I would hope you at least consider those things, as I have considered your points. It's challenging, but it's good that our faith gets challenged, which is why apologetics is so important. As for my interpretation of the quote, I base that on what some people would surely do with that. Sure, you may not see it that way, but what about everyone else? The trend of the world these days is to make truth relative, to question everything, etc. We see that in this very thread over and over again. If everything is up to each individual's interpretation, including what God should be, don't you think some people are going to make God into a god that fits their selfish desires? It happens all the time, even among professing Christians. But I do respect your position, and I would like to thank Fuchis for his respect of mine as well.
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Post by Bish on Apr 16, 2009 15:38:31 GMT -4
I think we have to agree to disagree on a lot of this. I certainly can't make the case as eloquently as it's stated in Boyd's book or elsewhere, and there are literally dozens more instances in the Bible where God gives someone a second chance, decides to add years to someone's life, expresses regret or sorrow over an outcome, etc. The issue we had was God's knowledge, but all that is in my last post and while I understand your "agree to disagree" stance, I would hope you at least consider those things, as I have considered your points. It's challenging, but it's good that our faith gets challenged, which is why apologetics is so important. As for my interpretation of the quote, I base that on what some people would surely do with that. Sure, you may not see it that way, but what about everyone else? The trend of the world these days is to make truth relative, to question everything, etc. We see that in this very thread over and over again. If everything is up to each individual's interpretation, including what God should be, don't you think some people are going to make God into a god that fits their selfish desires? It happens all the time, even among professing Christians. Yes, both very good points. That's one of the things I was trying to get at before - that's it's very important for our faith to get challenged, and for people to continue to seek and question. And regarding the second part, that's where the Bible, the church, and trusted friends/elders need to come in to help keep individual interpretations and desires in check and appropriately balanced. I definitely respect your point of view (and that of others in this thread like rog, Sav, Jogo, Dominates!, and One-Time). This area of discussion is always fascinating to me. Just wish I had more time to truly hash it out with people.
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Post by J-Sav on Apr 16, 2009 19:27:34 GMT -4
Damn. You think because you lie to someone, you deserve death? So you are praising God because you fear his wrath? So you don't mind being apart of a sick game that God has thrown us into that tells us we're worthless, and only by praising him, we are good? Well, with my faith, he still loves you, because your heart is in the right place, and you are not worthless, regardless of how you feel about yourself and others. You are a good man, with a good heart. But you're focusing your great mind on something that doesn't matter. And what God hates is judgemental people who say whoever isn't like them is not worthy of living. That is the ultimate crime against Him. My God understands that we are going to make mistakes, and do things tha we are not proud of. But ultimately, if you can learn from those experiences, then you'll be the best person that you can be, then that is what He acknowledges. My God loves. And love can't be made out of fear. And If you should know that if God is the all knowing being that we know, then he should know love is a given, and not created out of fear.
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Post by cupcrazy01 on Apr 17, 2009 17:27:39 GMT -4
Damn. You think because you lie to someone, you deserve death? So you are praising God because you fear his wrath? So you don't mind being apart of a sick game that God has thrown us into that tells us we're worthless, and only by praising him, we are good? Well, with my faith, he still loves you, because your heart is in the right place, and you are not worthless, regardless of how you feel about yourself and others. You are a good man, with a good heart. But you're focusing your great mind on something that doesn't matter. And what God hates is judgemental people who say whoever isn't like them is not worthy of living. That is the ultimate crime against Him. My God understands that we are going to make mistakes, and do things tha we are not proud of. But ultimately, if you can learn from those experiences, then you'll be the best person that you can be, then that is what He acknowledges. My God loves. And love can't be made out of fear. And If you should know that if God is the all knowing being that we know, then he should know love is a given, and not created out of fear. James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. Yes, I believe that one lie makes me deserve to die. That does not lead me to worship God in fear, it leads me to worship Him in reverence, which, when the Bible speaks of "fearing" God, is the proper connotation. The implication is a solemn reverence for God and His holiness, which is reflected in His holy Law. He is the maker and giver of all things. It makes sense that I owe Him everything, because He gave me everything. That's not cowardly love, that's humble love.
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Post by Seattle Slough on Apr 22, 2009 0:22:38 GMT -4
A couple questions:
1. Why would god send his own son to be crucified? Especially if you said he knows the predestined future of him. Why would he send his own son to be killed and know it.
2. Why does anybody think about other planets and what else is out in the universe? You can't possibly think that there isn't anything outside the planets we have that in our solar system that circles around the sun. There is proven pictures of other so called suns and what not outside of around us. I guess unless you think all that is fake as well.
Did god create all those planets or huge suns(stars)? Why didn't he create life on other planets or make other planets habitable by humans?
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