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Post by Steve on May 13, 2019 18:35:40 GMT -4
There’s been a million things to indicate Dany could’ve gone mad queen...it’s literally been littered each season. Anybody that finds it to be a stretch or think it’s ridiculous is an absolute idiot.
Like DudlyBob said, they could’ve built that aspect up, but such is life when those knucklehead writers say no to adding episodes and try to jam pack everything into 6 episodes.
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Post by Studlybob on May 13, 2019 18:39:14 GMT -4
I also don't mind the way Jamie and Cersei died at all. It seems to have upset people though. People wanted some epic fight or some character they really liked to get to kill her. To me that's the kind of stuff that has made the series kind of dumb for the last few seasons. All the stupid shit you see in every fantasy show. The last minute saves, the Jon Snow running through a hail of arrow fire and not getting touched, Arya some how managing to sneak through the woods without any of the white walkers noticing her, a night king who can dodge anyone's sword attacks but isn't quick enough to react to a dagger falling through the air...
Cersei's death was a metaphor for her entire life. She trapped herself in a corner and eventually everything collapsed around her and she was buried under it. Jamie killing her would have just been one more person, cough cough Theon, who absolutely didn't deserve a redemption moment getting one. Why would he kill her? He said it himself. He tried to murder a child because she told him to. He ruined his entire family for her. He wouldn't just kill her. He'd rather die. Anything else would have been dumb.
The show isn't, or shouldn't be, about one big emotional payoff like having Arya or Sansa kill the queen. That's just bullshit fantasy stuff which is the opposite of what the books were about. The queen ran as far as she could and finally ran out of options and died in a totally realistic way considering the circumstances.
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Post by Steve on May 13, 2019 18:41:39 GMT -4
I also don't mind the way Jamie and Cersei died at all. It seems to have upset people though. People wanted some epic fight or some character they really liked to get to kill her. To me that's the kind of stuff that has made the series kind of dumb for the last few seasons. All the stupid shit you see in every fantasy show. The last minute saves, the Jon Snow running through a hail of arrow fire and not getting touched, Arya some how managing to sneak through the woods without any of the white walkers noticing her, a night king who can dodge anyone's sword attacks but isn't quick enough to react to a dagger falling through the air... Cersei's death was a metaphor for her entire life. She trapped herself in a corner and eventually everything collapsed around her and she was buried under it. Jamie killing her would have just been one more person, cough cough Theon, who absolutely didn't deserve a redemption moment getting one. Why would he kill her? He said it himself. He tried to murder a child because she told him to. He ruined his entire family for her. He wouldn't just kill her. He'd rather die. Anything else would have been dumb. The show isn't, or shouldn't be, about one big emotional payoff like having Arya or Sansa kill the queen. That's just bullshit fantasy stuff which is the opposite of what the books were about. The queen ran as far as she could and finally ran out of options and died in a totally realistic way considering the circumstances. Holy shit. I may faint. I agree with everything in this entire post.
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Post by Derek Fisher on May 13, 2019 19:24:22 GMT -4
I have no problem with Dany's turn other than that I think they could have sold the possibility better. I thought that the battle was whether or not she'd destroy the red keep and kill all the people they packed into it or if she wouldn't. The fact that she just started murdering the entire city...even leaving Cersei alone for the first part of it...seemed to be the stretch. That was just malicious. They didn't establish her hate for the people of the city. Just the rulers of the city. So killing all the civilians didn't feel justified. On the other hand the Mad King wasn't a psycho his entire life. He did stuff WAY worse than what Dany did and he didn't start going crazy until he had been ruling for a number of years. From that perspective I don't have a problem with Dany turning crazy. Mad Queen has been hinted heavily in the books. It's just that she has so many fans so that possibility has always been shutdown by the majority of the base. Been expecting it since I read the books in 2011. Her descent will absolutely be handled better in the books. Show Dany is worse than Aerys btw.
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Post by Studlybob on May 13, 2019 19:58:49 GMT -4
I have no problem with Dany's turn other than that I think they could have sold the possibility better. I thought that the battle was whether or not she'd destroy the red keep and kill all the people they packed into it or if she wouldn't. The fact that she just started murdering the entire city...even leaving Cersei alone for the first part of it...seemed to be the stretch. That was just malicious. They didn't establish her hate for the people of the city. Just the rulers of the city. So killing all the civilians didn't feel justified. On the other hand the Mad King wasn't a psycho his entire life. He did stuff WAY worse than what Dany did and he didn't start going crazy until he had been ruling for a number of years. From that perspective I don't have a problem with Dany turning crazy. Mad Queen has been hinted heavily in the books. It's just that she has so many fans so that possibility has always been shutdown by the majority of the base. Been expecting it since I read the books in 2011. Her descent will absolutely be handled better in the books. Show Dany is worse than Aerys btw. I don't agree with that part at all. Dany has burned people alive and she burned the entire city. So did Aerys but they were very different in level of crazy and cruel. Aerys was going to burn the entire city and had planned for it for a long time. Dany did it in a fit of rage which I suspect she'll come to regret on some level. Aery's burned people alive over hours and hours while making their loved ones watch. He made Ned's brother strangle himself to death trying to rescue his father who was being burned alive. He did this for practically no reason. He did very similar things to many other people. Dany burned people alive but they died quickly and it wasn't torture. She killed people who committed treason, were horrible slavers, or had just tried to kill her and wouldn't swear fealty. She didn't torture them or do anything other than execute them. Which many rulers did. Sorry but they're not even close when it comes to method, purpose, and level of malice.
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Post by Studlybob on May 13, 2019 20:00:35 GMT -4
I also don't mind the way Jamie and Cersei died at all. It seems to have upset people though. People wanted some epic fight or some character they really liked to get to kill her. To me that's the kind of stuff that has made the series kind of dumb for the last few seasons. All the stupid shit you see in every fantasy show. The last minute saves, the Jon Snow running through a hail of arrow fire and not getting touched, Arya some how managing to sneak through the woods without any of the white walkers noticing her, a night king who can dodge anyone's sword attacks but isn't quick enough to react to a dagger falling through the air... Cersei's death was a metaphor for her entire life. She trapped herself in a corner and eventually everything collapsed around her and she was buried under it. Jamie killing her would have just been one more person, cough cough Theon, who absolutely didn't deserve a redemption moment getting one. Why would he kill her? He said it himself. He tried to murder a child because she told him to. He ruined his entire family for her. He wouldn't just kill her. He'd rather die. Anything else would have been dumb. The show isn't, or shouldn't be, about one big emotional payoff like having Arya or Sansa kill the queen. That's just bullshit fantasy stuff which is the opposite of what the books were about. The queen ran as far as she could and finally ran out of options and died in a totally realistic way considering the circumstances. Holy shit. I may faint. I agree with everything in this entire post. Great. Now I want to kill myself.
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Post by Mogwai Mode on May 13, 2019 21:44:06 GMT -4
I have no problem with Dany's turn other than that I think they could have sold the possibility better. I thought that the battle was whether or not she'd destroy the red keep and kill all the people they packed into it or if she wouldn't. The fact that she just started murdering the entire city...even leaving Cersei alone for the first part of it...seemed to be the stretch. That was just malicious. They didn't establish her hate for the people of the city. Just the rulers of the city. So killing all the civilians didn't feel justified. On the other hand the Mad King wasn't a psycho his entire life. He did stuff WAY worse than what Dany did and he didn't start going crazy until he had been ruling for a number of years. From that perspective I don't have a problem with Dany turning crazy. I don't think anyone really has a problem with her turning crazy, eventually. The problem is that this show's rush to the end has robbed Dany (and literally every character) from the believable character development and setup that we've enjoyed for the first 5 or 6 seasons. The Red Wedding was shocking and brutal but it was also (in a way) satisfying because the character motivations and actions made sense. Actions have consequences and it established how intricate the writing and plotting for this story (show or books) was. The problem here is that the show has turned from thoughtful build up to jump scares. There was nothing natural about Dany's decision to commit the worst mass murder ever committed to screen (I'm pretty sure the show has stated that over 1 million people reside in Kings Landing, that means her forces and her have literally just committed mass genocide). This is the same girl who championed the fight to end slavery in Slaver's Bay. People say, but Dany has burned people in the past. Let's take a look at her "kill list": 1. Mirri Maz Duur - Poisoned her Husband and cursed he unborn child 2. Pyat Pree, Xaro, Doreah - Chained her dragons and her up, murdered her Dothraki guards/servants 3. Krazy Kraznys and the "Good Masters" of Astapor - Cruel Slave Owners 3. The Masters of Meereen - Cruel Slave Owners who crucified 163 children on the road to Meereen 4. All the Great Khals - The Dothraki way of life is basically raping and reaving 5. The Tarlys - She gave them an easy choice, they chose death, this is on the Tarlys She has never willfully killed innocents or shown any inclination toward, even the thought of, attacking innocents yet, on a whim, she massacres 1 million last night? This twist feels hollow, it wasn't earned like many of the best moments of this show. It was shock for the sake of shock. That's a betrayal of everything this show is about.
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Post by Studlybob on May 13, 2019 21:52:01 GMT -4
I have no problem with Dany's turn other than that I think they could have sold the possibility better. I thought that the battle was whether or not she'd destroy the red keep and kill all the people they packed into it or if she wouldn't. The fact that she just started murdering the entire city...even leaving Cersei alone for the first part of it...seemed to be the stretch. That was just malicious. They didn't establish her hate for the people of the city. Just the rulers of the city. So killing all the civilians didn't feel justified. On the other hand the Mad King wasn't a psycho his entire life. He did stuff WAY worse than what Dany did and he didn't start going crazy until he had been ruling for a number of years. From that perspective I don't have a problem with Dany turning crazy. I don't think anyone really has a problem with her turning crazy, eventually. The problem is that this show's rush to the end has robbed Dany (and literally every character) from the believable character development and setup that we've enjoyed for the first 5 or 6 seasons. The Red Wedding was shocking and brutal but it was also (in a way) satisfying because the character motivations and actions made sense. Actions have consequences and it established how intricate the writing and plotting for this story (show or books) was. The problem here is that the show has turned from thoughtful build up to jump scares. There was nothing natural about Dany's decision to commit the worst mass murder ever committed to screen (I'm pretty sure the show has stated that over 1 million people reside in Kings Landing, that means her forces and her have literally just committed mass genocide). This is the same girl who championed the fight to end slavery in Slaver's Bay. People say, but Dany has burned people in the past. Let's take a look at her "kill list": 1. Mirri Maz Duur - Poisoned her Husband and cursed he unborn child 2. Pyat Pree, Xaro, Doreah - Chained her dragons and her up, murdered her Dothraki guards/servants 3. Krazy Kraznys and the "Good Masters" of Astapor - Cruel Slave Owners 3. The Masters of Meereen - Cruel Slave Owners who crucified 163 children on the road to Meereen 4. All the Great Khals - The Dothraki way of life is basically raping and reaving 5. The Tarlys - She gave them an easy choice, they chose death, this is on the Tarlys She has never willfully killed innocents or shown any inclination toward, even the thought of, attacking innocents yet, on a whim, she massacres 1 million last night? This twist feels hollow, it wasn't earned like many of the best moments of this show. It was shock for the sake of shock. That's a betrayal of everything what this show is about. I agree with all of that. The shift to cray cray wasn't super abrupt but to the level of cray cray it certainly was. Never did she comment about hating the people in the city. Just the rulers. They just went too far without enough justification. The only justification for killing all the people is that she thought they would never love her like her slave people did so she had to "rule by fear". It's just totally ridiculous logic to go from there to killing people. She hasn't shown the level of crazy up to this point to justify abandoning all logic like that. At most she's been Chaotic Good (D&D alignment) up to this point. A switch to Neutral Evil that quickly was too much. That being said I still liked the episode. I'd rather have they a character make an unjustified leap in their mental attitude than see another battle where every main character is facing certain doom only to be miraculously saved at the last second by another main character. At least the former is interesting and keeps you on your toes.
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Post by Mogwai Mode on May 13, 2019 22:26:12 GMT -4
I don't think anyone really has a problem with her turning crazy, eventually. The problem is that this show's rush to the end has robbed Dany (and literally every character) from the believable character development and setup that we've enjoyed for the first 5 or 6 seasons. The Red Wedding was shocking and brutal but it was also (in a way) satisfying because the character motivations and actions made sense. Actions have consequences and it established how intricate the writing and plotting for this story (show or books) was. The problem here is that the show has turned from thoughtful build up to jump scares. There was nothing natural about Dany's decision to commit the worst mass murder ever committed to screen (I'm pretty sure the show has stated that over 1 million people reside in Kings Landing, that means her forces and her have literally just committed mass genocide). This is the same girl who championed the fight to end slavery in Slaver's Bay. People say, but Dany has burned people in the past. Let's take a look at her "kill list": 1. Mirri Maz Duur - Poisoned her Husband and cursed he unborn child 2. Pyat Pree, Xaro, Doreah - Chained her dragons and her up, murdered her Dothraki guards/servants 3. Krazy Kraznys and the "Good Masters" of Astapor - Cruel Slave Owners 3. The Masters of Meereen - Cruel Slave Owners who crucified 163 children on the road to Meereen 4. All the Great Khals - The Dothraki way of life is basically raping and reaving 5. The Tarlys - She gave them an easy choice, they chose death, this is on the Tarlys She has never willfully killed innocents or shown any inclination toward, even the thought of, attacking innocents yet, on a whim, she massacres 1 million last night? This twist feels hollow, it wasn't earned like many of the best moments of this show. It was shock for the sake of shock. That's a betrayal of everything what this show is about. I agree with all of that. The shift to cray cray wasn't super abrupt but to the level of cray cray it certainly was. Never did she comment about hating the people in the city. Just the rulers. They just went too far without enough justification. The only justification for killing all the people is that she thought they would never love her like her slave people did so she had to "rule by fear". It's just totally ridiculous logic to go from there to killing people. She hasn't shown the level of crazy up to this point to justify abandoning all logic like that. At most she's been Chaotic Good (D&D alignment) up to this point. A switch to Neutral Evil that quickly was too much. That being said I still liked the episode. I'd rather have they a character make an unjustified leap in their mental attitude than see another battle where every main character is facing certain doom only to be miraculously saved at the last second by another main character. At least the former is interesting and keeps you on your toes. I definitely agree the amount of last minute saves the last two seasons have been ridiculous and, maybe, a big reason why last night's slaughter of the lambs was so jarring, as the show has lost it's edge in the last two seasons with characters literally being dragged back from the grave (looking at you Tormund). What's most frustrating is that they could have still made her turn work if it would have been more morally gray, which is where this show lives. But they made it completely black and white. Also I'm not buying this whole narrative that Dany has no one left that loves her and that's partly why she went mad. She has Jon (non-incest familial love), Grey Worm, the Unsullied, the Dothraki (maybe more respect than love), probably some freed slaves she brought over from Essos. And, putting aside the motivations for a second, how stupid was her decision from a strategic standpoint? I mean the Targaryens are geographically southerners (Dragonstone and King's Landing are on the southeast of the continent). Most of the common folk who would have supported Dany were probably living in King's Landing. They're (mostly) all dead now and any survivors likely hate her guts. That leaves her constituents as the: 1. Northerners - Who already hate/distrust anyone that's not from the North (especially Targayrens). 2. Dornish - Who are basically a hermit kingdom that doesn't trust anyone. 3. Ironborn - Literal cutthroats you can't trust (I doubt Yara lasts long). 4. Freefolk - Would never submit to any Westerosi ruler. If her intent was to rule with fear maybe she should have burned another city because now she has no (reliable) allies.
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Post by Derek Fisher on May 14, 2019 0:12:55 GMT -4
Don't worry guys, I will save the fantasy genre.
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Post by J-Sav on May 14, 2019 13:43:45 GMT -4
A great thread on reddit pretty much explaining how this last episode was great. A lot of people saying this season has been enjoyable but just rushed.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bohsbl/spoilers_let_it_be_fear_aka_why_the_bells_was_one/
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Post by Mogwai Mode on May 20, 2019 0:12:20 GMT -4
Found this on Reddit.
"I once brought a honeycomb and a jackass into a brothel"
Well since they never let Tyrion finish, here is one version of the joke: ======================= Tyrion walks into a brothel with a honeycomb and a jackass.
Madame: What can we do for you?
Tyrion: I need a woman to lay with, for mine has left me.
Madame: Whatever for? And what's with the honeycomb and the mule?
Tyrion: My woman found a genie in a bottle, and he granted her three wishes. The first was for a house fit for a queen, so he gave her this damn honeycomb. The second wish was that she have the nicest ass in all the land, so he gave her this damn donkey...
Madame: And what about the third wish?
Tyrion: Well... she asked the genie to make my cock hang down past my knee.
Madame: Well that one's not so bad eh?
Tyrion: Not so bad!? I used to be six foot three!
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Post by Derek Fisher on May 20, 2019 0:16:43 GMT -4
Sigh...
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Post by Mogwai Mode on May 20, 2019 0:23:13 GMT -4
I remember they said the ending would be bittersweet. I feel like I just had some gulab jamun.
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Post by Derek Fisher on May 20, 2019 0:41:08 GMT -4
I remember they said the ending would be bittersweet. I feel like I just had some gulab jamun. Too bitter imo
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